Sunset Invasion - FAQ

[Grell74]

Well, now that your not hostile anymore, sending diplomat for White Peace. :laugh:

Anyways, I'm sure someone could figure out how to port the DLC shields/other stuff into the base game with a mod. But anyways, a giant free patch and expansion that will contain one of the following(pagans,republics, theocracies) is coming out soon™, this was supposed to be the 'unexpected surprise' before it, and boy was it unexpected.

See thats the thing, modders cant change army icon textures or the shield fame graphics at all. Paradox has used some ...id be lying if I said I knew the full details but its a 3rd part programmme and the license costs 10s of thousands of dollars. So yeah we are limited in this regard by what paradox releases as DLCs.

 

[Beric Dondarion]

See thats the thing, modders cant change army icon textures or the shield fame graphics at all. Paradox has used some ...id be lying if I said I knew the full details but its a 3rd part programmme and the license costs 10s of thousands of dollars. So yeah we are limited in this regard by what paradox releases as DLCs.

I was certain that Umbra Spherae(spelling?) mod had custom sprites for the Japanese sprites.

 

[Kanin_Usagi]

Because you have no right to tell them what they should've been doing during their spare time.

Or would you like your parents/teachers/wife/boss telling you to stop complaining on the forum during your spare time so you can do your chore/study/work/work during your spare time?

Besides, I think you've overestimated the amount of coding required to implement a DLC like that compared to implementing a brand new system such as faction, retinue, decadence and w/e you want them to put in.
Hell, I'd imagine most of the work time is spent on the sprite work, and those are not even that much work compared to the coding portion of a regular expansion/game.

I heard an estimate by a modder somewhere where he basically said that to program the events and create the artwork/sprites could have very well taken less than a day.

 

[Grell74]

Because you have no right to tell them what they should've been doing during their spare time.

Or would you like your parents/teachers/wife/boss telling you to stop complaining on the forum during your spare time so you can do your chore/study/work/work during your spare time?

Besides, I think you've overestimated the amount of coding required to implement a DLC like that.

Again with this "spare time" fiction.

Firstly I should think it rather insulting to the various people who have done the excellent event artwork, army models, shield graphics and new portraits, not to mention the event coding etc - that it looks like 1 person knocked this up in their lunch break.

Secondly I think you have underestimated the amount of coding and effort. I have modded a lot of this myself, I know there is a lot of work to be done.

Naturally I have no "right to tell someone that to do with their spare time", but do they also have the right to sell it for $5.00 and also the right to be above and beyond critisicm? I dont think so.

 

[Yazman]

How about you stop telling me what I am thinking, coming up with bizarre strawmen and odd obviously false little conclusions like "it was done in devs free time".

Are you at least capeable of acknowledging the simple premise that:

"the people who worked on Sunset Invasion could have worked on something else that wasnt Aztecs"

No, they couldn't have worked on something else that wasn't Aztecs. Your 'simple premise' is wrong, since Johan stated they weren't going to be doing anything else, and that no resources were wasted, which means.... THEY WEREN'T GOING TO BE ASSIGNED TO ANYTHING ELSE ANYWAY!

Your point here rests on the assumption that Johan lied.

 

[s1234567890m]

Why do people assume pdox people only work... maybe the time came from there forums time (here and the SA forums) and other publicity things

 

[performer]

I think it's a great idea, as long as it stays optional.
I really like the idea and I think it will be fun! A good start for little "tales" DLC for alternate stuff.

 

[CB60]

I'll skip it but I'm not mad. This is, on balance, a great game.
Now a Cthulhu DLC, I'd buy that just for the shoggoth retinues and the interbreeding...
"Your son shows a surprising affinity for water...."

But you would have to add Antarctica to the map. :happy:

 

[faati]

i wont buy.

i would expect something better.

 

[Marcelo]

:huh:

My first reaction was 'it must be a fool's day thing' but then I remembered it was the 1st of November not the 1st of April. But anyway...it would be considered normal if someone else had worked on this as a mod, it should be just as ok to be a DLC (though an odd one).

 

[Tomn_Peng]

No, they couldn't have worked on something else that wasn't Aztecs. Your 'simple premise' is wrong, since Johan stated they weren't going to be doing anything else, and that no resources were wasted, which means.... THEY WEREN'T GOING TO BE ASSIGNED TO ANYTHING ELSE ANYWAY!

Your point here rests on the assumption that Johan lied.

Woah, woah, OK, calm down. Grell74 has a point, actually, it's just a DIFFERENT point from the one most people are thinking about.

When Johan said that this DLC didn't take resources from anything else, he was GENERALLY referring to stuff like republics, theocracies, pagans, etc. - in other words, meaty gameplay changes that take designers and programmers to crack. This was in direct response to people complaining that "You threw over playable republics/theocracies/pagans/comets for THIS?!" "No resources were wasted" because the artists and scripters needed to work on this Aztec mod wouldn't have been able to help with that kind of thing to BEGIN with.

What Grell is suggesting, however, is that instead of modeling and scripting for Aztecs, these artists and scripters COULD have been drawing orcs/elves and scripting appropriate events for such. He further suggests that this would have been a lot handier to the community because there's a number of fantasy mods out there now that COULD use fantasy models and shields and are unable to insert these themselves, since existing Paradox modding tools don't support that. Heck, he even suggests that instead of fantasy, they could well have drawn things like Indian or Japanese units that modders could make use of. As such, the artists and scripters were "misspent" working on Aztecs when they could have been making elves/orcs/dwarves/Indians/Japanese/fanboy models.

This is entirely true, and he is entirely within his rights to be disappointed by the specific choice of things Paradox decided to model (and sell). That said, I can't help but think that the more historically-minded fans would have been just as furious and outspoken if the DLC HAD been about a fantasy invasion of some kind - it's true they say that fantasy would have been better now, but that's with the benefit of comparison. If they hadn't known that the alternative was Aztec invasion, would those screaming for republics really have been happier with the outbreak of the Dwarf/Troll wars in Scandinavia and the premature rise of Count Dracula? As for modeling units from other parts of the world, well, I don't personally know what the comparative popularity of nations is in the modding community, but hey - at least the guys hoping for a Mesoamerican mod are going to be happy, right?

 

[Grell74]

Thank you Tomn_Peng thats exactly the point I was making.

Given that something "fantasy" and fun and not historically accurate had to be released... why choose Aztecs?

There are mods trying to get off the ground based upon the excellent Warhammer setting and of course Lord of the Rings which would have greatly benefited from Orc, elf or dwarf unmoddable shield and army graphics, not to mention portraits. Or any other things like China, Undead, India, etc that the community have dreamed about.

 

[unmerged(66950)]

I think the outrage comes from those who always want something to be historically plausible, or at least possible. This DLC is neither, to put it politely. The Aztecs had never gone beyond canoes, used weapons made of wood and sharpened stones, had cotton armor, and never went beyond their borders and those of their victim kingdoms. It does, in my opinion, make it less likely for history lovers to take Paradox seriously.

It also seem to have a "revenge" aspect that I do not like. Europe invaded by overwhelming forces that bring a horrible disease, human sacrifice and ripping the hearts out of characters - gives those horrible Europeans a taste of what they deserve because of what they did to the third world - sounds like a politically correct fantasy.

I have been often disappointed as Paradox moves further and further from history. I do not mind and often enjoy plausible alternate history outcomes, but not this. An attack from the west by long established Chinese colonies in the Americas would have been much more plausible, and could have happened, had the Chinese made some different choices. And much more interesting, as the Chinese had the means to develop and use advanced tech, at least for the time.

 

[unmerged(147169)]

What does it matter if the fantasy is politically correct or not? Would it be any less politically correct if it were Chinese instead of Aztec? Does it bother you that much to think of the Aztecs being some invading force instead of being what they normally were?

 

[Tomn_Peng]

I think the outrage comes from those who always want something to be historically plausible, or at least possible. This DLC is neither, to put it politely. The Aztecs had never gone beyond canoes, used weapons made of wood and sharpened stones, had cotton armor, and never went beyond their borders and those of their victim kingdoms. It does, in my opinion, make it less likely for history lovers to take Paradox seriously.

It also seem to have a "revenge" aspect that I do not like. Europe invaded by overwhelming forces that bring a horrible disease, human sacrifice and ripping the hearts out of characters - gives those horrible Europeans a taste of what they deserve because of what they did to the third world - sounds like a politically correct fantasy.

I have been often disappointed as Paradox moves further and further from history. I do not mind and often enjoy plausible alternate history outcomes, but not this. An attack from the west by long established Chinese colonies in the Americas would have been much more plausible, and could have happened, had the Chinese made some different choices. And much more interesting, as the Chinese had the means to develop and use advanced tech, at least for the time.

What exactly makes an attack from the West by long-established Chinese colonies any more plausible? You're assuming that the Chinese actively decide to explore and sponsor large-scale colonization to the Americas (while maintaining a traditional cultural worldview that paints China as the center of civilization and everything else as howling, worthless wasteland full of angry barbarians), that these colonies spread out across the United States, knocking around all and any natives in the area, and that after reaching the East Coast the Chinese colonies decided that it would be jolly good fun to cross the ocean AGAIN and see what was on the other side and possibly invade the natives with numberless hordes of Chinese armies schlepping it across the Oregon Trail and two oceans. All this, incidentally, shortly after liberating themselves from their foreign, Mongol masters. Granted, if we make a number of assumptions and changes, such an event MIGHT just be on the outside edge of possible...but the same applies if you make similar assumptions and changes to the Aztecs so that they develop boats, good weapons and armor, and regularly expanded their borders. So what's the difference between the Chinese and the Aztecs in terms of plausibility?

 

[Deaghaidh]

As far as the notion of this being made in employees "spare time", generally speaking, most people would not call time you spent working doing the same thing you are paid to do for the company you work for, who then makes profit on it "spare time." It sounds more like "unpaid overtime" to me.

Regarding the Chinese vs Aztecs, with the Aztecs you have to assume that they inexplicably developed a robust seafaring tradition and its attendant technologies overnight. Thousands of years of technological progress and trial and error in a generation or so. While you are doling out technologies, why not give them gattling guns, b-52s, or laser cannons?

If you want to do fantasy, do fantasy, and own it. Don't rationalize. It insults your audience's historical literacy.

 

[SaintDaveUK]

I was certain that Umbra Spherae(spelling?) mod had custom sprites for the Japanese sprites.

Changing the texture is easy. Modifying the sprite models is the issue.

 

[Lucius Drake]

Don't listen to these entitled gamers, Paradox. They act like once they own the game, they automatically have some sort of creative control over it. That entire notion is absurd. Even if it did take time from other DLCs, who cares? We don't get a say in that. We merely consume their products as they are released. Money talks. If you like it, buy it. If you don't, then don't! You don't every whiny human being to come out of the woodwork to protest this "affront to historical gaming." Crusader Kings was never about reliving history. It is about creating a distinct atmosphere to do with the world as you please. Sunset Invasion merely is a natural extension of that. Just because they are going to release one fantasy DLC, doesn't mean that every single DLC from here on out is going to be similar in style to the Aztecs.

All of you should be ashamed of yourself. This aura of entitlement of nauseating.

Keep on keepin' on, Paradox.

 

[liamgamer55]

Firstly I should think it rather insulting to the various people who have done the excellent event artwork, army models, shield graphics and new portraits, not to mention the event coding etc - that it looks like 1 person knocked this up in their lunch break.

It's a game forum not a self help forum. If people want to give honest opinions or honest reviews they can. This isn't the creative assembly forum where negative posters get banned.

 

[Grell74]

It's a game forum not a self help forum. If people want to give honest opinions or honest reviews they can. This isn't the creative assembly forum where negative posters get banned.

... you took my quote out of context and then try in twist it into the opposite of what I was saying... I am criticising the choice of Aztecs as a DLC. I dont know where you pulled "self help forum" from, but to suggest that I was trying to stifle honest negative opinon is either a willful trolling attempt or an utter lack of comprehension on your part (and that my honest opinon )

If anyone is trying to stifle criticism its the posters calling other people "whiners" and throwing around the fashionable "entitlement" putdown. I suggest you direct your strawmen in their direction.

Another problem I have with the choice of Aztecs is that as an actual civilisation it sits awkwardly in between fantasy and historical reality. This encourages mass-debate and contention, what-if, Vinland theories and silly arguments. A pure fantasy dlc like Orcs or Demons or whatever would not have been as problematic because it can easily have been classified as such without trying to straddle the insurmountable plasuibility/logic hurdle.