Would a pure CL or DD spam be effective against CV's? They are even faster and pack a lot of AA. I presume things could get nasty if the CV fleet has a CA or even bigger guns with it.
Would a pure CL or DD spam be effective against CV's? They are even faster and pack a lot of AA. I presume things could get nasty if the CV fleet has a CA or even bigger guns with it.
In addition to that, yes, being nasty, most CV fleets have an escort of their own. If you bring a 12DD fleet to fight carriers, 4 are sunk and 4 others damaged before their "good AA" manages to get rid of the CAGs, and then your remaining "8" have to go through 6 CLs before they can touch a carrier... it won't end well.
...when the weather is bad, which makes CAGs toothless.
First off, to reply to another post... in SF, surface forces could barely do jack to a fleet containing a single carrier. FtM, this is no longer the case.
Now, as to the original post...
I have done a LOT of naval fighting. My report is: Yes, BC-DD fleets (as GER) are more effective at anti-CV warfare than combinations with BB or CL.
That being said, I am ---most definitely not--- saying that "BC beats CV".
If you are going to honestly counter the RN (and later USA) CV fleets with BC, you need to make sure of a few things:
A) Keep your BC and DD engine tech as far ahead in research as you reasonably can. Other techs too of course, but this one is crucial.
A2) If you have "old ships", use them for *other purposes* than refilling lost ships. Anything more than 1 tech-level behind the fleet you are trying to "replenish" is going to likely hurt you more than help. If you have an entire fleet that's "getting up in years", switch it's active role to convoy raiding, shore-bombarment providing, or standing in the next seazone over from the actual fight to intercept any other enemy navies trying to get to the "juicy carrier" combat.
B) ALWAYS engage within rage of land-based air. Even if you out-speed the target CV fleet, their CAGs are going to do a lot to you while you are trying to shoot at the ships. By engaged the CAGs, at worst, the CAGs will end up with the "multiple combat penalty" for being engaged by INT at the same time, and at best, you can chase them off/destroy them, which (by definition) prevents them from harming your BC/DD fleets.
B2) If the air is clear of CAG, then send in some NAV of your own. Shooting the target from both air AND sea will speed up the "sinking process", and as well, if the enemy fleet is already engaged by 1 of your forces, the other one will have a 100% detection chance to enter combat with it
C) Even in ideal conditions, it will take a while to sink the ships; CVs (both ingame and historically, save for maybe a couple JAP models) are one of the more resillient ship types. You'll chase off to port/damage a lot more CV than you sink from full health. While sinking is always better, a CV is only a dangerous sea opponent if it's actually out in the sea. If you keep them locked in ports forever, that's 80% of a win right there. (for added fun, then launch an amphibious invasion against the port province while you have it blockaded... the fleet will try to move out to intercept the invasion, right into your waiting battlefleet, and usually then right back into port after taking a few hits ;p )
very nice post, helped me allot But would you say BC+DD instead of BB+DD fleets are worth it against a RN which has both carriers and battleships?
very nice post, helped me allot But would you say BC+DD instead of BB+DD fleets are worth it against a RN which has both carriers and battleships?
Yes and no.
Yes, because all those old RN BBs are crap. I can kill most of the old RN BBs with subs, BBs, BCs, CAs, NAVs, phased plasma assault rifles, nukes, and sharp sticks. (My favorite is sinking all of the old non-CV RN using Donnitz and a stack of 20 subs outside of RAF coverage. Talk about Fail Britannia, fail to rule the waves.) Furthermore, while old CLs and DDs can update their spotting, RADAR, ASW, and AA, they still have crap hull and crap sea attack, so they can be sunk by BBs, BCs, CAs, NAVs, and sharp sticks as well.
The thing about the RN is that so many of their starting ships are WWI or 1920s vintage. They are easy to kill. But the newer stuff is much harder to kill. An up to date BB with 1940 techs will kill an up to date BC with 1940 techs (all other things being equal). If the AI is escorting CVs with new BBs, your BCs can say hello to CAGs pounding them while BBs shell them.
Edit: The CVs will stick around so they can be hypothetically shot at, but now your BCs are tangling with surface ships that are on par with them in terms of hull and firepower.
What if the CAGs are suppressed by interceptors? If so, wouldn't the UK BBs be outnumbered by the BCs?
What if the CAGs are suppressed by interceptors? If so, wouldn't the UK BBs be outnumbered by the BCs?
jju_57: Germany has 0 practicals with CVs and very bad tech for them, and needs allot of IC for the army and airforce. For the price of 3+6CLs or 6 CVs+8CLs you could get ALLOT of BCs/BBs and DDs
Themousemaster: Hmm, I see. Well, the goal is to help Italy as much as possible in a multiplayer game. For that I was contemplating whether BBs+DDs or BCs+DDs would be best.
What if the CAGs are suppressed by interceptors?
Assisting Italy? Well then may I make a suggetion: if you aren't under a self-imposed historical/roleplay constraint, then the most effectigve way to help Italy is to move 2 corps of units to them as son as they ally, move a fleet to the Med pre-war, and then when you are hostile with the UK, launch an invasion of Northern Egypt (taking the Suez and everything east). This will allow their ships to get out of the med... which is rather an immense benefit. And rarely difficult (unlike Gibraltar, which due to it's forts, if the AI decides to put any real unit there, is a pain to take without DoW'ing Spain)
And what about the enemy interceptors?If you are depending on the CV's entering that deeply into your land based air cover as a required element in sinking them, then what do you need expensive BCs for? Just build NAVs and INTs. The INTs will deorg their CAGs to uselessness and the NAVs can then have relatively free runs at them until they either retreat back to blue waters or sink.
I'm talking about a MP game
And what about the enemy interceptors?