Pre-order Crusader Kings II live!

[unmerged(151070)]

Good Lord...go over to the DLC thread and read Johan, Dark, and Captain's comments about this. They are graphical additions that were never budgeted in for the game development that they figured, later on, would be a great DLC for players so they asked an artist to do it for them. This was outside of the game budget, so you can't just lump it in. the DLC cost is meant to recoup that development time and cost.

I figured that much, yet 'graphical options' should be in the game anyway. IF you can add stuff during the development time, why not include it in the game for free? When I read the thread about future preorder gifts I expected a bit more than lousy DLC. Where is the point in pre-ordering when you receive the same stuff in a late complete pack on steam anyway? Other than that, I'm waiting for the pre-order to appear on Steam. It's a bit impractical to have DLC on GG.

 

[Frezzin]

I figured that much, yet 'graphical options' should be in the game anyway. IF you can add stuff during the development time, why not include it in the game for free? When I read the thread about future preorder gifts I expected a bit more than lousy DLC. Where is the point in pre-ordering when you receive the same stuff in a late complete pack on steam anyway? Other than that, I'm waiting for the pre-order to appear on Steam. It's a bit impractical to have DLC on GG.

What they mean by "later on" was that when they were already in the middle of developing the game, someone came up with the idea. So the budget had already been decided and allocated, etc. They couldn't just change the budget to add these, so they decided to do them as DLC.

Even if it was decided in the beginning (which Johan and them have indicated is not the case) it's as likely they said, ok to add these would put us over our reasonable budget for the game so let's offer it as DLC and pay for it using those funds.

People have this crazy idea that when game developers, movie studios, etc, sit down to do development budgets and time costs, etc, that somehow they know whether or not the product will be a success. Try to keep in mind guys that when they are setting up these things they have no idea how successful CK2 will be and have to factor in that risk.

 

[Wezqu]

I figured that much, yet 'graphical options' should be in the game anyway. IF you can add stuff during the development time, why not include it in the game for free? When I read the thread about future preorder gifts I expected a bit more than lousy DLC. Where is the point in pre-ordering when you receive the same stuff in a late complete pack on steam anyway? Other than that, I'm waiting for the pre-order to appear on Steam. It's a bit impractical to have DLC on GG.

Mainly because they have to pay the artist who did it. He was third party artist not part of Paradox. If they would include it on the game they would have to pay the person more of the base games income and in short lose money on their own part. In DLC form they can pay the artist and still get money for further developement for the main game and in short isn't this what we all want. There is a reason why there is a budget for a game so they can make certain margin of profit. maybe because you like the game and want to support the company that made it and the game itself as pre-orders are very important to the game companies.

 

[Maizel]

When I read the thread about future preorder gifts I expected a bit more than lousy DLC.

Besides free DLC what would you have imagined as a gift? A custom teacup? A car?

Pre order gifts are never very large, besides being a piece of marketing , I regard pre order bonusses as a 'thank you' for the faith you have in the game and the developers, by buying it before you know the actual quality of the product.

I think it's unrealistic to expect anything big.

 

[Pyriel]

Preordered!

I think people are big deal out of nothing.. But that's just me

 

[unmerged(151070)]

I think it's unrealistic to expect anything big.

After there had been an official announcement about the change of policy regarding patches, expansions, dlc and pre-order bonuses, etc. which was supposed to start with CK2, I expected to see some actions. You can't just announce that you are going to cater to first-hour fans and then not favour them. I don't see my edge on people who buy the -75% off 'complete' pack on Steam. Graphical mods never did a thing for me, most of the time they are worse than what free mods have to offer because artists are less likely to OCD-ridden than lore/history nut forumites.

 

[Wezqu]

After there had been an official announcement about the change of policy regarding patches, expansions, dlc and pre-order bonuses, etc. which was supposed to start with CK2, I expected to see some actions. You can't just announce that you are going to cater to first-hour fans and then not favour them. I don't see my edge on people who buy the -75% off 'complete' pack on Steam. Graphical mods never did a thing for me, most of the time they are worse than what free mods have to offer because artists are less likely to OCD-ridden than lore/history nut forumites.

The artist is former mod maker and is most likely still around in these forums.

 

[DoktorZaius]

I don't see my edge on people who buy the -75% off 'complete' pack on Steam.

You get the game on Feb 7th with 2 DLCs included. At best, they'll probably get a Steam summer sale for everything at 50%, so maybe $22 for the whole package. I'll pay $40 for it so that I can play it on release and support Paradox. YMMV though.

 

[unmerged(151070)]

You get the game on Feb 7th with 2 DLCs included. At best, they'll probably get a Steam summer sale for everything at 50%, so maybe $22 for the whole package. I'll pay $40 for it so that I can play it on release and support Paradox. YMMV though.

Well, that's 2 day one dlcs. I still don't see the edge on people that buy it later. I thought it was clear that if you buy it earlier you will be able to play it earlier. Oh, and since I live in Europe, it'd be 40€ for me. Just think about the Witcher 2, dlcs were free. Morrowind, all official plugins were free. If they didn't account for Mongolian faces in a game that features Mongols, that's their fault, isn't it? If you think about it, one could even say that the faces were another way to milk the customers.

The customer who pre-ordered has the risk of buying a buggy product. First I thought "cool, 2 dlcs are free when you pre-order". That was because I thought that you'd get the the first two dlcs that will come out on the long run for free. Which is a real edge. (Of course you might say that you could cut content from the game to sell it later). I thought Paradox was trying to provide an incentive against piracy.

I can't find the announcement I am talking about, unfortunately.

€: just stumbled upon an image that is related to this problem: http://i.imgur.com/8tEcI.jpg

 

[parasxos]

€: just stumbled upon an image that is related to this problem: http://i.imgur.com/8tEcI.jpg

amazing graphical implementation of the dlc situation hmy:

 

[Nick B II]

After there had been an official announcement about the change of policy regarding patches, expansions, dlc and pre-order bonuses, etc. which was supposed to start with CK2, I expected to see some actions. You can't just announce that you are going to cater to first-hour fans and then not favour them. I don't see my edge on people who buy the -75% off 'complete' pack on Steam. Graphical mods never did a thing for me, most of the time they are worse than what free mods have to offer because artists are less likely to OCD-ridden than lore/history nut forumites.

If you're wondering where your "edge" over the people who wait three months and get the game cheap is you probably shouldn't be buying computer games. Your edge is that you get to play the game for three more months then them. Their edge is they get the game cheap. That's just how it works.

As for whether these features should be part of the main game, I'd point out that before the DLCs were announced it was pretty clear to me that a) dynastic shields would be randomly generated and b) Mongols would look like Arabs. If you didn't know that it's because you didn't think it was important enough to ask. There was a dev who speculated some dynasties might get their proper CoAs, but there was no concrete information from anybody who actually knew what hey were talking about implying that the Mongols would have non-Arab faces and the Wittelsbachs would have their historical heraldry.

In other words Paradox is offering you more then you thought, for the same price. The same price because you're a pre-orderer. If you weren't a pre-orderer you'd be stuck paying $4 for the DLCs, or not buying them. And you're not happy because a) non-pre-orderers should get the same bonus, and b) pre-orderers should get a better bonus?

Pardon me if I'm confused.

Nick

 

[unmerged(151070)]

Pardon me if I'm confused.
Nick

No point in discussing things with drones. I don't care if the baker said he will sell the cake without icing, then adds icing and charges additionally for the icing. Neither is it fair to people who pre-order as it's not a big 'gift' nor fair to people who buy the game after it's published because they lack features.

A nice pre-order gift would have been concept art, music, etc.

I generally dislike the concept about dlc because if I buy a game I want to own it completely. These days you risk buying an uncomplete product.

Don't get me wrong, I love Paradox games and I love Paradox, but that's a road they shouldn't take.

 

[Will Lucky]

No point in discussing things with drones. I don't care if the baker said he will sell the cake without icing, then adds icing and charges additionally for the icing. Neither is it fair to people who pre-order as it's not a big 'gift' nor fair to people who buy the game after it's published because they lack features.

Actually considering the DLC is simply aethsetical, it would make more sense to say the Baker offered to do the icing in another color for extra cost.

As far as I'm concerned this is DLC relating to the look of the game, not the function. If this DLC affected in the gameplay in anyway then there would be reason to complain.

 

[DoktorZaius]

A nice pre-order gift would have been concept art, music, etc.

I hate it when pre-orders reward you with concept art/music. I want to play the game, and these pre-order bonuses will improve that experience in some small way. It's clear that different people want different things in this regard, but I think most people would prefer extra game content to external stuff as you suggested.

We can argue in circles as to whether or not these DLC packs are core content for the game, but I take Paradox at their word that they didn't have the resources to budget it into the core game, so they had to turn to DLC if it was to be included at all. If you think they're lying, then don't buy the game. I'm personally good with it.

 

[RhoDaZZ]

Not going to buy it on pre-order, there already is DLC that has obviously been cut from the game. Won't support this kind of milking. Not going to buy on GG either.

I figured that much, yet 'graphical options' should be in the game anyway. IF you can add stuff during the development time, why not include it in the game for free? When I read the thread about future preorder gifts I expected a bit more than lousy DLC. Where is the point in pre-ordering when you receive the same stuff in a late complete pack on steam anyway? Other than that, I'm waiting for the pre-order to appear on Steam. It's a bit impractical to have DLC on GG.

Well, that's 2 day one dlcs. I still don't see the edge on people that buy it later. I thought it was clear that if you buy it earlier you will be able to play it earlier. Oh, and since I live in Europe, it'd be 40€ for me. Just think about the Witcher 2, dlcs were free. Morrowind, all official plugins were free. If they didn't account for Mongolian faces in a game that features Mongols, that's their fault, isn't it? If you think about it, one could even say that the faces were another way to milk the customers.

The customer who pre-ordered has the risk of buying a buggy product. First I thought "cool, 2 dlcs are free when you pre-order". That was because I thought that you'd get the the first two dlcs that will come out on the long run for free. Which is a real edge. (Of course you might say that you could cut content from the game to sell it later). I thought Paradox was trying to provide an incentive against piracy.

I can't find the announcement I am talking about, unfortunately.

€: just stumbled upon an image that is related to this problem: http://i.imgur.com/8tEcI.jpg

Sure one *could* say that. Just as well as I could say that we are being milked for giving up our money in the first place. That's just how business works. One part has the goods and wants a suitable reward for it in return. I find that reasonable.

That picture is also grossly exaggerated (also funny that no attention is paid to the evolution of the price of the base game, instead just comparing DLC and expansions with...nothing?) and does not fit Paradox's games. Here graphical DLCs (optional extras, usually made by third-parties) are $1.99 and the DLC you would call an expansion pack will probably be $10-20 in the future also. In addition, here you even get these for free as an incentive to pre-order, and they'll probably be available in later compliations as well. Had your post been about the TW games you might have had a point, but I see no reason to disrespect Paradox for having a DLC policy which rewards the customers and makes them able to choose freely at very low prices without subtracting anything from the original game. In fact, I applaud Paradox for still being a company which treats its customers well, and in a modern way.

And if we need to have a technical debate about the content of this DLC... why did no one complain about the Mongols before? But now you suddenly seem very interested in them? If it's just a matter of principle, can't you see that it really is an extra this DLC adds? We could also be complaining about the lack of (afaik) African and Komi portraits, but should we be? Sure these things are nice to have, but in the end every project has limited resources in terms of both budget, manpower and time.

 

[Aardvark Bellay]

... because they lack features.

How about trying CK1 DV first, there were no dynastic shields or mongol faces. When you play it you might understand why it wasnt implemented from
the very start and budget and why CK1 veterans wont really care that much. Just a thought.

I generally dislike the concept about dlc because if I buy a game I want to own it completely. These days you risk buying an uncomplete product.

Me too !
But As long as its actually expansions, which you only got in the past by buying a whole pack for the same price as the basic game, i like them.

Paradox might need to proof that they wont go the way other companies went in selling an uncomplete game and selling necessary parts later.
We shouldnt necessarily expect Paradox to do the same like Ubisogft, Blizzard and others.

As mentioned often before, Paradox isnt keen on walking to the Dark Side and i trust that for now.

 

[nyah]

No point in discussing things with drones. I don't care if the baker said he will sell the cake without icing, then adds icing and charges additionally for the icing. Neither is it fair to people who pre-order as it's not a big 'gift' nor fair to people who buy the game after it's published because they lack features.

A nice pre-order gift would have been concept art, music, etc.

I generally dislike the concept about dlc because if I buy a game I want to own it completely. These days you risk buying an uncomplete product.

Don't get me wrong, I love Paradox games and I love Paradox, but that's a road they shouldn't take.

I got some free music for pre-ordering vic2. Never listened to it. What would I do with concept art? DLC has a purpose.

 

[DoktorZaius]

We could also be complaining about the lack of (afaik) African and Komi portraits, but should we be?

Very good point, and Ethiopians etc. are in the game from 1066 until the end, so if people expect the game to represent everyone with perfect graphical depictions all the time, then they should be up in arms about this too.

 

[unmerged(151070)]

Sure one *could* say that. Just as well as I could say that we are being milked for giving up our money in the first place. That's just how business works. One part has the goods and wants a suitable reward for it in return. I find that reasonable.

That picture is also grossly exaggerated (also funny that no attention is paid to the evolution of the price of the base game, instead just comparing DLC and expansions with...nothing?) and does not fit Paradox's games. Here graphical DLCs (optional extras, usually made by third-parties) are $1.99 and the DLC you would call an expansion pack will probably be $10-20 in the future also. [...] Had your post been about the TW games you might have had a point, but I see no reason to disrespect Paradox for having a DLC policy which rewards the customers and makes them able to choose freely at very low prices without subtracting anything from the original game. [...]
We could also be complaining about the lack of (afaik) African and Komi portraits, but should we be? Sure these things are nice to have, but in the end every project has limited resources in terms of both budget, manpower and time.

As for the Komi, you could just take the Mongol, Finn or Hungarian ones, joke aside.

Yeah, you probably are right. But only because the price policy regarding the TW games are worse, that wouldn't prove me wrong. Other than that, prices of video games declined, not increased. I remember buying HoMM IV for 40€ in 2001. Not sure if it wasn't even more. Most likely the price increased because of the Euro. (And VAT has increased from 16% to 19% in Germany). Not accounting for the black sheep that Vivendizzard is. And "low price" is argueable.

I want to play the game, and these pre-order bonuses will improve that experience in some small way.

They shouldn't improve the experience for a small proportion of players. And I and most likely many other players don't care about what you prefer.

Well it's better than no bonuses at all. I just complain because of that big-mouthed announcement. I just hope that there will soon be a pre-order on Steam. Dividing the pre-order bonuses per platform is the worst.

Actually considering the DLC is simply aethsetical, it would make more sense to say the Baker offered to do the icing in another color for extra cost.

As far as I'm concerned this is DLC relating to the look of the game, not the function. If this DLC affected in the gameplay in anyway then there would be reason to complain.

I agree. You are correct there.

Edit:

Actually considering the DLC is simply aethsetical, it would make more sense to say the Baker offered to do the icing in another color for extra cost.

As far as I'm concerned this is DLC relating to the look of the game, not the function. If this DLC affected in the gameplay in anyway then there would be reason to complain.

This is why I don't want to put with this way of selling games. I don't want to give Pdox an incentive on cutting content from the game.

How about trying CK1 DV first, there were no dynastic shields or mongol faces. When you play it you might understand why it wasnt implemented from
the very start and budget and why CK1 veterans wont really care that much. Just a thought.

It doesn't really matter what happened when CK1 came out.

 

[unmerged(151070)]

Edit:
whoops, I 'editted' per quick post... please delete...