AHD DD6 – China

[EMT0]

This sounds like a way to just chop off even more off of the gameplay than there currently is. I agree with the idea of SOI by the state rather than this. This...seems like the more desperate solution for a problem found with the SOI system itself rather than how China actually was. Say, if a country is larger than 4 states and uncivilized or larger than two states and civilized, then it has to be influenced state by state. Players routinely critique the AI for making strange choices when it comes to V2 and expansion/management. You wish to delegate even more power to an AI that's incapable of suppressing a small rebellion in their own country or even creating proper armies? I can assure you that playing China just became a non-option for me in this case if I have to rely on an AI to manage part of the country I'm playing.

EDIT: Perhaps this system is more appropriate for places like British India, the Dutch East Indies, and Australia, which were not governed from London and were essentially self-managed. But the problem with that is, by giving away control, you lose out on income and taxes. Will a percentage of a substate's income be given to the state, or will it essentially be like an even more inflexible dominion?

 

[Helios Ra]

Yes there are a few new wargoals. One is to fight for freedom (also breaks spheres) the other is to put puppet countries

So can substates become independent at all or never?

 

[Soulstrider]

And what if someone conquer the actual China provinces, do the substates become independent.

 

[murlocmancer]

Interesting change. I agree that some new substates could be added. India would be a good one. Although i hope substates can also have a chance of getting out and being independant somehow.
Glad colonial featuring with miltary presense is being added in again.

 

[CaptRobau]

The gameplay setup you've made here could work quite well. It prevents GPs (mostly Britain) from gobbling up China, which while not impossible seems just to much of a daunting task for any colonizer. It does allow the economic exploitation of China, which is very realistic.

Yet what you've done with it in-game so far is not as ideal. The division in substates is nowhere near historical, neither in terms of existing administrative divisions or in divisions that resemble historical spheres.

As far as I can see, you have:

Xinjiang
Yunnan
Guangxi
Mongolia
Manchukuo

These are just the current countries you already have in the game. This is something that could be duly improved.

Historically Qing China was subdivided among 8 Viceroys:

Viceroy of Zhili
Viceroy of Liangjiang: Jiangsu, Jiangxi, Anhui
Viceroy of Min-Zhe: Fujian, Zhejiang, Taiwan
Viceroy of Huguang: Hunan, Hubei
Viceroy of Shaan-Gan: Shaanxi, Gansu, Xinjiang
Viceroy of Liangguang: Guangdong, Guangxi
Viceroy of Yun-Gui: Yunnan, Guizhou
Viceroy of Sichuan
Viceroy of Three Northeast Provinces: Fengtian, Jilin, Heilongjiang

These Viceroys where in charge of military and civil affairs of their regions. With a bit of moving around, these Viceroys can be made to resemble the historically sphered areas. China would only be in control of a few areas such as Bejing, Tianjin and the treaty ports, Japan, Russian Far East. Each port would be a seperate state so that there can be several wars fought for control over them. Tibet and Mongolia would be seperate substates as well. Tibet wouldn't get swallowed up immediately and most importantly when China civilizes, they'd be able to break free like they and the various warlord cliques did during the 1912 Revolution. It'd be a much better approximation for those two areas than what is in vanilla.

Ideally countries that border you would become easier to sphere. Japan takes over Taiwan? The neighbouring viceroy of Min-Ze becomes easier to influence.

Ideally every Qing province would be a seperate Substate so that you could have a more accurate Warlord era-esque situation in the late-game.

This system could be exported to other places, fitting the best with Japan. After the Meiji Restoration the Shogunate and several daimyos rose up against the emperor, which is very much like how this system works. Would be more interesting than those generic reactionary rebels we usually get.

Other areas could be Ethiopia and the aforementioned India nerf.

It's not a real solution for stuff like Canada, etc. as it's removes the ability to conquer those places. A V2 where the US can't take Canada is a bad V2. Instead the warscore system needs to be fixed so that those thousands of Indian troops don't matter if the goal is Canada and you don't transport them there within a realistic timeframe (now you can just leave everything defenseless, keep a strong navy and bring in the Indian hordes even years after the area has been taken over).

 

[murlocmancer]

Also what is next week's dev diary?

 

[Arizal]

I like the concept, but I'm wondering why we have to fight against the full Chinese army in each case, since I learned in one of my history course that the British were actually at war against a province of the Chinese empire, and not the empire itself... I understant it is for gameplay reason.

But I don't understand why this "quasi-federalism" is rejected for other countries such as Ottoman Empire, British Empire and Autria(-Hungary). If we could still control what our almost vassals do, I would be absolutely pleased. So to Sir Leningrad list, I will just add this : (the double hyphens mean "potentially")

Austria
-Cisleithania (Austria)
-- Czechoslovakia (Or Bohemian kingdom, since it could have happened)
-Transleithania (Hungary)
--Croatia
--Slovenia
Russia
--Poland (if it is restored by a reformer Tzar, and it could also be formed by Austria and Prussia)

You aslo forgot :
Ottoman Empire / Egypt :
-Jordan

We could also put many countries in an initial Ottoman's influence sphere. I would like it ultimately if Germany could be a federation, but maybe it wouldn't have so much influence to the game, as most of the powers were in the hand of the chancellor.

 

[Gloa]

]Tibet and Mongolia would be seperate substates as well. Tibet wouldn't get swallowed up immediately and most importantly when China civilizes, they'd be able to break free like they and the various warlord cliques did during the 1912 Revolution. It'd be a much better approximation for those two areas than what is in vanilla.

I believe they mentioned that Tibet will be a satellite of China (which will also keep it from being swallowed up immediately and letting them break free - but keeping them more distinct administratively and letting there be more other ways for Tibet to break away from Chinese influence).

Ideally countries that border you would become easier to sphere. Japan takes over Taiwan? The neighbouring viceroy of Min-Ze becomes easier to influence.

Isn't that how it is already (except that Formosa is an island, so it might not count it as bordering... but you do have a bonus to sphereing nations you border, which presumably works the same way with substates)?

It's not a real solution for stuff like Canada, etc. as it's removes the ability to conquer those places. A V2 where the US can't take Canada is a bad V2. Instead the warscore system needs to be fixed so that those thousands of Indian troops don't matter if the goal is Canada and you don't transport them there within a realistic timeframe (now you can just leave everything defenseless, keep a strong navy and bring in the Indian hordes even years after the area has been taken over).

They mention that you can fight to take territory from the substates in wars against China (technically I think you can take territory from vassals in a similar way, although the cb's might prohibit that) - so for Canada the U.S. would have to fight Britain, but they'd definitely be able to take Canada. It would be the same as it is now (except that they seem to be fixing around wars a bit too so it might actually be easier to take Canada without invading the Home Isles or anything).

 

[Dyranum]

You know, something which would be very helpful when using sub-states in modding would be to be able to change country colours on the fly. I'm pretty sure that isn't possible right now.
Anyways, just a tought I had which I thought was interesting.

 

[Vieras]

This is the only major colonial change.

This is very disappointing. Military presence doesn't really change anything since you can easily spare 1 or 2 units if you are colonial power. CB system seems interesting if you have to keep away from GB and France. But colonialism still seems too straight forward tech rush and just click and wait for the colonies, the same way for every single country in the world.

 

[podcat]

Who controls the armies, factories (if civilized), etc. of the substates? Are they controlled separately, like with puppets, or centrally? In other words, will someone playing as China get to control the substate armies, or will this be handled by the AI?

Also, what happens if you declare war on China itself, not a substate? Will you be able to invade the substates and have to fight the combined armies of all the substates, or will you only be at war with "China proper"?

all of them are always fighting with you. they control their own armies etc just like a puppet. a substate is pretty much a puppet but with some extra rules like Darkrenown explained

And what if someone conquer the actual China provinces, do the substates become independent.

yes

So can substates become independent at all or never?

no, I was talking about puppets. a substate cant break free (except at the point of civilizing where there are events etc)

Also what is next week's dev diary?

"military stuff"

You know, something which would be very helpful when using sub-states in modding would be to be able to change country colours on the fly. I'm pretty sure that isn't possible right now.
Anyways, just a tought I had which I thought was interesting.

its doable in the internal build. I could leave it on in final release I guess

 

[stevetry]

so china will no longer cheat cuz as soon the civilise they are IMORTAL

 

[Andrelvis]

Nice that we will be getting substates, but IMO they really should appear in the political map in the same color as their master, to demonstrate that internationally, they aren't independent. Would also be nice if the master could have options in interacting with their provinces, so that it feels more like they're part of the same country.

 

[wyattmcp]

Here is a thought, what about making areas currently being colonized as a free for all. Troops stationed in a province could be killed by other troops if both countries were colonizing that land but only in the province, and without being at war with each other.

 

[Kalelovil]

Thats already part of the system.

 

[Raph]

so china will no longer cheat cuz as soon the civilise they are IMORTAL

In what way is that cheating?

 

[unmerged(144721)]

I would like that decisions were remained for Russia on annexation of Primorye, like
Treaty of Aigun, 1858
Convention of Peking, 1860

 

[Nelson007]

that change the game to a fantastic game,too bad

 

[Phalanxia]

You know, something which would be very helpful when using sub-states in modding would be to be able to change country colours on the fly. I'm pretty sure that isn't possible right now.
Anyways, just a tought I had which I thought was interesting.

its doable in the internal build. I could leave it on in final release I guess

This would be amazing - please do this.

 

[AlknicTeos]

Awesome!
With 2 questions
What, if chinese nations have different sphere_leader, which are at war against.
And, will one small chinese state still be able to conquer korea or dai nam by their own for me ?