Hello again folks, I do believe it is time for another dev diary!

We've basically covered most of the features in the game by now, so I thought I'd change tack and talk a bit about what we've been up to in the last week. Much of the focus lately has been on war and peace, both the rules and the AI behaviour. I am pleased to report that we've now got vassals within the same realm fighting each other like the vicious bastards they are.

We have also changed the rules a bit - vassals are now allowed to declare war on independent rulers, but independent rulers still cannot declare war on vassals. Thus, we now have William of Normandy as a vassal of France while invading England on his own. An unforeseen consequence of this is that he now tends to call in his father-in-law, another French vassal, Duke Boudewijn of Flandres to help him out. Marriage matters folks, and don't you forget it!

On a related note, Duchess Matilde of Tuscany, vassal of the Holy Roman Emperor (and the most eligible bride in Europe), tends to open the game in 1066 with a rather bad move, attacking the Pope to seize Orvieto (which is de jure part of her Duchy of Spoleto.) Other times, the Pope usurps the title Duke of Spoleto, and then Matilde feels obliged to attempt to take it back.

Either way, the unfortunate Duchess tends to get a rather nasty surprise. She has forgotten an important lesson that you might remember from an earlier diary - the Pope gets taxes from loyal bishops around Europe, making him a very, very rich man. So, while he has few levies of his own to raise, he can basically afford to hire every mercenary company in Europe! Even the mighty Holy Roman Emperor sometimes loses to the might of the Vatican.



...and there was much balancing.

Until next time!

 

[tajerio]

hopefully the plots wont be military at all. Surely plotting should lead to bloodless palace coups, assassinations, backstabbing, etc, not wars. the point of plotting is to avoid having the fight, but achieve the goal cleanly and with cunning.

A plot could just as viably be maneuvering to catch one's enemy off his guard at the onset of a war. I wouldn't think there would be any need to place the kind of limit you're suggesting on them.

 

[Nick B II]

hopefully the plots wont be military at all. Surely plotting should lead to bloodless palace coups, assassinations, backstabbing, etc, not wars. the point of plotting is to avoid having the fight, but achieve the goal cleanly and with cunning.

I'm trying to think of a Medieval Catholic culture that would have considered a palace coup to be cleaner then an honest rebellion against the King. I'm coming up blank.

I'm trying to think of a time a Catholic ruler tried to kill a rival covertly, rather then sending his troops to do the job in their freaking uniforms. I'm coming up blank.

So plots should be military. You get your buddies to start a Civil War, probably with the goal of giving more power to the nobility. You convince a neighbor to support your claim to a third party's title. You coordinate military campaigns against a common enemy.

Look at it this way: the closest thing England had to a Palace Coup and covert assassination during this period was Edward II. The "Palace coup" was technically not a Palace Coup at all, but a rebellion that succeeded by default because none of the King's men fought it. The assassination happened after he was deposed, and wouldn't be well-simulated by a plots feature anyway. Plots are supposed to be things you have to ask other rulers to help you with, and Edward II was a prisoner who was simply murdered by his captors.

Nick

 

[mp84]

Great ideas there hopefully that will give the Devs some inspirations for more Plots in CK II... I mean the possibilities are endless with the medieval intrigue that went on in western/eastern Europe during this time, but only time will tell in the end I guess.. (Unless of course a DD for CK II talks about it, heh).

 

[.Spartan]

Hmm... I think "plot system" is such a mundane expression. PI should call it a 'subterfuge mechanic' as it is far more sexy. Accordingly it has better marketing value. =p

 

[unmerged(193360)]

hopefully the plots wont be military at all. Surely plotting should lead to bloodless palace coups, assassinations, backstabbing, etc, not wars. the point of plotting is to avoid having the fight, but achieve the goal cleanly and with cunning.

Don't get too hung up on the word "plot". In Sengoku they are a way to coordinate military action, something that has been dearly missed from every EU style game before it. I expect it will be much the same in CK2.

 

[Orinsul]

I'm trying to think of a Medieval Catholic culture that would have considered a palace coup to be cleaner then an honest rebellion against the King. I'm coming up blank.

I'm trying to think of a time a Catholic ruler tried to kill a rival covertly, rather then sending his troops to do the job in their freaking uniforms. I'm coming up blank.

So plots should be military. You get your buddies to start a Civil War, probably with the goal of giving more power to the nobility. You convince a neighbor to support your claim to a third party's title. You coordinate military campaigns against a common enemy.

Look at it this way: the closest thing England had to a Palace Coup and covert assassination during this period was Edward II. The "Palace coup" was technically not a Palace Coup at all, but a rebellion that succeeded by default because none of the King's men fought it. The assassination happened after he was deposed, and wouldn't be well-simulated by a plots feature anyway. Plots are supposed to be things you have to ask other rulers to help you with, and Edward II was a prisoner who was simply murdered by his captors.

Nick

MacBeth? fictional, but still a good example, not just killing the king, the plot would be the political maneuvering to make sure that when hes dead you and not his legal heir will follow onto the throne.
But Stephen plotting with the Barons to pretend to support Matilda until the king was dead. all the Barons Wars as well. all the good examples i can think of right now are fictional, mostly from the chansons so atleast fictional from the time.

Plots shouldnt just be for starting wars, you have declaring war to do that. Plots should also be there for vassal applying pressure on their liege, usurpations, lesser vassals secretly supporting the enemy in an invasion CB or Claim Throne CB war to gain power once the war is over, denouncing unpopular heirs of your liege to prevent their succession. There are athousand possibilities, to limit them to war would be a waste. This is not a War-game, it is a game of Dynasties, of Houses.
So hand in hand with that it should be a game of backroom deals and secret conspiracies and apparently powerful kings being the pawns of their counts and vassals, and Plots could do that.

Don't get too hung up on the word "plot". In Sengoku they are a way to coordinate military action, something that has been dearly missed from every EU style game before it. I expect it will be much the same in CK2.

Sengoku is about War, so everything in it is about War. CK2 isnt about Wars, its about families. And families are devious.

 

[unmerged(193360)]

So hand in hand with that it should be a game of backroom deals and secret conspiracies and apparently powerful kings being the pawns of their counts and vassals, and Plots could do that..

This might be cool but I don't want to wait until 2014 for CK2. Nothing we have heard suggests that the game could support such gameplay mechanics without huge amounts of work. I'm going to be happy with my coordinated DoW plots

 

[Nick B II]

MacBeth? fictional, but still a good example, not just killing the king, the plot would be the political maneuvering to make sure that when hes dead you and not his legal heir will follow onto the throne.
But Stephen plotting with the Barons to pretend to support Matilda until the king was dead. all the Barons Wars as well. all the good examples i can think of right now are fictional, mostly from the chansons so atleast fictional from the time.

Even if MacBeth weren't fictional, it's out-of-period, and it's not really a capital P Plot. Remember a Plot is something you ask other Lords to join. It's not like Shakespeare's MacBeth asked the King's other vassals for their support before he killed Duncan. He just killed Duncan.

King Stephan's plot started a Civil War.

Plots shouldnt just be for starting wars, you have declaring war to do that. Plots should also be there for vassal applying pressure on their liege, usurpations, lesser vassals secretly supporting the enemy in an invasion CB or Claim Throne CB war to gain power once the war is over, denouncing unpopular heirs of your liege to prevent their succession. There are athousand possibilities, to limit them to war would be a waste. This is not a War-game, it is a game of Dynasties, of Houses.

"Applying pressure to lieges" is pretty much entirely military in this period. It's not like the King is gonna change policy because three of his vassals send him a letter. Your other examples involve a CB, so they're inherently military.

I'm not saying there should be no capital P Plots that aren't military. I'm just saying that it's very difficult to think of a situation where one feudal lord would need to sound out the others for support that doesn't ultimately end in a war.

Nick

 

[Slaxl]

Seems to me we shouldn't say "plots should be for this and only this", we should be able to use the subterfuge mechanic (I agree with .Spartan on that) for both Sengoku type coordinated military action, but also palace intrigue style plotting.

 

[InboxMadness]

I hope that the plot system includes a promise system, so that you can promise other characters stuff such as titles, and that they have deadlines with consequences.

 

[unmerged(7537)]

I'm not saying there should be no capital P Plots that aren't military. I'm just saying that it's very difficult to think of a situation where one feudal lord would need to sound out the others for support that doesn't ultimately end in a war.

Nick

Well, there's assassination, renunciation of feudal oaths, excommunication, usurpation...

 

[Slaxl]

I hope that the plot system includes a promise system, so that you can promise other characters stuff such as titles, and that they have deadlines with consequences.

So long as the deadline is something tied to an event in the plot as it unfolds, and not a specific date, because otherwise you'll offer someone the Duchy of Norfolk for helping your invasion and you hurry as quick as you can but you only manage to win the war one day too late, and it's too late, the guy hates you, and no one else trusts you, even if you give him the duchy, one day too late.

 

[gronank]

So long as the deadline is something tied to an event in the plot as it unfolds, and not a specific date, because otherwise you'll offer someone the Duchy of Norfolk for helping your invasion and you hurry as quick as you can but you only manage to win the war one day too late, and it's too late, the guy hates you, and no one else trusts you, even if you give him the duchy, one day too late.

Or better still, a series of events that gradually decreases the vassals opinion as he slowly understands that he has been betrayed. That way the "overnight HATE" effect is reduced

 

[Nick B II]

Well, there's assassination, renunciation of feudal oaths, excommunication, usurpation...

Here's what's getting very frustrating for me:
I say "Plots should almost always be military," and people say "should not, Plots should include <insert method of causing Civil War>, and <insert something totally unsuited to the Plots mechanic>"

Usurpation and the renunciation of feudal oaths are clearly the former, because they start a war. We don' know much about CK2's Plots, but we know they will be, at core, Lord A going to Lord B and asking for help in something. If you can find a single example of Medieval assassination that involved Lord A going to Lord B saying "let's kill the King" I will eat my hat.

Excommunication could be interesting, but it could also be an example of something that isn't covered by the Plots mechanic. It could remain a Diplomatic option, as it was in CK1. And it simply can't feature in most Plots in the game or non-Popish characters will never be able to participate in any plots.

Nick

 

[Captain Gars]

Well even landless characters can be valuable in a plot even though they have nothing to offer in an actual armed conflict.

 

[mp84]

Well even landless characters can be valuable in a plot even though they have nothing to offer in an actual armed conflict.

ut ohh.. you know that comment is gonna be debated to ends on in now, as perhaps you're basically saying we'll have non-military centric plots in CK II .. Of course it's all speculation here on my part though, heh.

 

[Zzzzz...]

Well even landless characters can be valuable in a plot even though they have nothing to offer in an actual armed conflict.

what are they contributing?

I can imagine it already. My plot becomes tasty once the spymaster joins my plot. The king will become vulnerable! Mwahahaha!

 

[InboxMadness]

I hope any courtiers can attempt to assassinate other people, including the ruler.

 

[Drakken]

I'm trying to think of a time a Catholic ruler tried to kill a rival covertly, rather then sending his troops to do the job in their freaking uniforms. I'm coming up blank.

Charles VII certainly tried to kill Jean sans Peur covertly on the Bridge of Montereau. The trouble is, it didn't work, and he was killed overtly in front of him instead. And when Jean Sans Peur himself had Louis d'Orleans murdered in an alleyway in Paris, years earlier, it didn't work either. The target on his back was so great, the culprit so obvious, that he actually had to paint it publicly (as in, in front of members of the Université de Paris) as a tyrannicide to save his hide.

And using poison certainly would count as "covertly".

 

[tajerio]

what are they contributing?

Landless characters could definitely contribute a claim--say the younger brother of the king of France is in the Provençal court, but he hears that the dukes of Flanders and Champagne are up to something, and now if they start a war out of this plot, the dukes can put a more cooperative king on the throne.