Werewolf LXXXIX: Werewolf Air

[randakar]

So many roles. This game was complex, and I don't think I like the idea that the seer's where Pack-Specific. I just see that as fail right there. It should have been three different scanner types and three different packs of baddies if you wanted to do that.

I think this game was set up for a evil side win. It basically was 3 evil sides and 1 good side. :X

Well, for me this game felt doomed pretty quickly. Especially day 6, when a *lot* of people were starting to make my wolfdar go off and there was very little I could do to turn it around..

Not sure what I could have done to win this. Before EL died I may still have had a chance but afterwards? With Hax turned and a ton of baddies invisible to me?

Meh.

randakar can check out the PM I sent him, because I specifically said that THEY KNOW they can only check for a certain kind of wolf. It would have retarded JL formation for a bit, because pinging a potential wolf could be really bad, but with the starting line-up, it would have only been a matter of time before they could completely clear a single villager of wolfishness.

Ehm. Did I know this?
I don't think I did. At least, I didn't *realize* that.

Now that I look back, digging up the PM:

We have some
information that some members of this flight have planned to seek
asylum in a friendly state to their requests, and it is imperative
that we subdue this threat. You are NOT TO TELL ANYONE of your
tasking, in order to not compromise your mission.

(You are a Sky Marshal looking for Asylum Seekers)

Well. Now that you tell it like that, sure that PM does say it. I thought the "Asylum Seekers" bit was fluff though - I didn't think it would mean "You can't scan a specific type of wolves"... since well, the role description on the first page doesn't mention that restriction at all.

It would be a low intelligence threshold if people could not get how pack-specific scanners worked.

I have never encountered a pack specific scanner before. I didn't know something like that might exist. The rules said nothing, your PM just said "looking for Asylum Seekers" which I thought synonymous with "wolves". I had no idea.

For me this game was intensely frustrating (right until that pm landed in my inbox) because I didn't seem able to scan any wolves and the rest of the "justice league" was imho incompetent. Hax was a very very bad person to speak for the JL (especially after he got turned ..) and marty was awol too much for me to be able to use him as an intermediate. Also, marty doing a DIY outing was just very very bad because it allowed jonti to block his scanning capability completely.

Couple that with the Velasco fiasco and the early luck wolfies had with hunts, the turning of Hax, the fact that Lemeard wanted all scanners dead, the deceptive scan results .. I really had no chance of winning this.

 

[Eternaly_Lost]

Well, for me this game felt doomed pretty quickly. Especially day 6, when a *lot* of people were starting to make my wolfdar go off and there was very little I could do to turn it around..

Not sure what I could have done to win this. Before EL died I may still have had a chance but afterwards? With Hax turned and a ton of baddies invisible to me?

Meh.



Ehm. Did I know this?
I don't think I did. At least, I didn't *realize* that.

Now that I look back, digging up the PM:



Well. Now that you tell it like that, sure that PM does say it. I thought the "Asylum Seekers" bit was fluff though - I didn't think it would mean "You can't scan a specific type of wolves"... since well, the role description on the first page doesn't mention that restriction at all.



I have never encountered a pack specific scanner before. I didn't know something like that might exist. The rules said nothing, your PM just said "looking for Asylum Seekers" which I thought synonymous with "wolves". I had no idea.

For me this game was intensely frustrating (right until that pm landed in my inbox) because I didn't seem able to scan any wolves and the rest of the "justice league" was imho incompetent. Hax was a very very bad person to speak for the JL (especially after he got turned ..) and marty was awol too much for me to be able to use him as an intermediate. Also, marty doing a DIY outing was just very very bad because it allowed jonti to block his scanning capability completely.

Couple that with the Velasco fiasco and the early luck wolfies had with hunts, the turning of Hax, the fact that Lemeard wanted all scanners dead, the deceptive scan results .. I really had no chance of winning this.

You went out of your way to not tell us who the packs where, Ciryandor. Looking over the PM, the seers had no idea that they would miss half the badguys.

There is you have to have intelligence to understand, and there a you have to be a real seer to read the GM's mind to understand. This is the latter one. There is nothing to tell them otherwise.

 

[johho888]

Just like in the old days, ehhh? But the last few days was quite fun for me

Yes, this could have been a game hosted by Jinnai or The Gonzo... Oh, I had fun, that's not it. I just don't think the setup gave everyone a reasonably equal chance to win.

And to me this wasn't a werewolf game since it didn't have the basic concept of uncoordinated powerless many (the villagers) against the coordinated powerful few (the wolves).

 

[Eternaly_Lost]

Yes, this could have been a game hosted by Jinnai or The Gonzo... Oh, I had fun, that's not it. I just don't think the setup gave everyone a reasonably equal chance to win.

And to me this wasn't a werewolf game since it didn't have the basic concept of uncoordinated powerless many (the villagers) against the coordinated powerful few (the wolves).

This was the uncoordinated powerful many against the even more coordinated and powerful few.

Sadly, you can predict how that will turn out every time.

 

[Rysz]

Yes, this could have been a game hosted by Jinnai or The Gonzo... Oh, I had fun, that's not it. I just don't think the setup gave everyone a reasonably equal chance to win.

And to me this wasn't a werewolf game since it didn't have the basic concept of uncoordinated powerless many (the villagers) against the coordinated powerful few (the wolves).

Indeed, that's what I was trying to say too. A game with only 2 villagers is no werewolf. It's more Diplomacy or something

You went out of your way to not tell us who the packs where, Ciryandor. Looking over the PM, the seers had no idea that they would miss half the badguys.

There is you have to have intelligence to understand, and there a you have to be a real seer to read the GM's mind to understand. This is the latter one. There is nothing to tell them otherwise.

Indeed. If you want to make special rules, other things need to stay the same the same. So people can pick up clues. Things that for you might be completely clear, might be less clear to others, since they don't know what you know. Most important: make sure there is always a translation from theme to the "normal" names. And regarding the pack-specific scanners: if noone (except for the seer himself) knows such a thing exists, noone will think of it, and consider it an option for why scans fail.

 

[randakar]

Indeed, that's what I was trying to say too. A game with only 2 villagers is no werewolf. It's more Diplomacy or something


Indeed. If you want to make special rules, other things need to stay the same the same. So people can pick up clues. Things that for you might be completely clear, might be less clear to others, since they don't know what you know. Most important: make sure there is always a translation from theme to the "normal" names. And regarding the pack-specific scanners: if noone (except for the seer himself) knows such a thing exists, noone will think of it, and consider it an option for why scans fail.

... and in this case, the seer himself didn't even know

 

[johho888]

... and in this case, the seer himself didn't even know

Appearently I knew, see question 4. I just didn't understand.

Okay, I wanted to answer this privately; and I did request that all queries about the game be carried out privately. Information IS an important commodity every player needs to maximize in this game. BUT I will not consider it a violation of GM rules if you post my replies for this specific questions.

@GM

In the update you said Calamity was a "baddie apprentice", not what kind of baddie she was apprenticed to. Normally I'd take that to be the sorcerer's apprentice but from the rules it looks like people with the spy trait and cultists(?) have some sort of scanning abilities although I've never heard of apprentices that can be claimed by anyone but a "real" scanner (seer/priest/sorcerer).

Question #1: Which (known to us) roles/traits can claim an apprentice?

Only roles may claim apprentices, spying trait players do NOT pick up apprentices.

In the update when GeneralHannibal the wolf was lynched we didn't get his pack name.

Question #2: Will we get to know which pack dead wolves belongs to (names, colour coding etc)?

It would really help if you stated clearly in the page one summary the roles/traits of the dead people. Like it is now it is very hard to tell which part of the dead people description is RPing and which is role/traits. For example Calamity is described as "disaster-foretelling trainee" and Paendrag as "SAS Sky Marshall"

If there is any pack affiliation in this game, I WILL NOT disclose it. On the summary page, I will stick to providing the same information given on the daily updates underneath the log of each day. Thank you for bringing that point of information to my attention, as it would not affect the amount of information each player has of the game.

Question #3: Is disaster-foretelling a (previous unknown) scanner role? or just added for RPing?

RP fluff on that specific point. Calamity is once again, a baddie's apprentice.

Question #4: Is SAS relevant? Can SAS sky marshalls scan for some types of wolves and for example KLM sky marshalls scan for another type?

The SAS fluff may or may not be relevant. As for the second part of that question, that I cannot answer clearly for you, as that may or may not be part of the game.

 

[Rysz]

If there is any pack affiliation in this game, I WILL NOT disclose it. On the summary page, I will stick to providing the same information given on the daily updates underneath the log of each day. Thank you for bringing that point of information to my attention, as it would not affect the amount of information each player has of the game.

I think this is a serious flaw. You made pack-specific seers, but you withhold ANY pack information from the players. These two things don't combine.

 

[Eternaly_Lost]

I think this is a serious flaw. You made pack-specific seers, but you withhold ANY pack information from the players. These two things don't combine.

Exactly, He might have well have told us that it was baddie or good sided person for all we knew. None of the scanners knew that a person needed to be looked at three time to be clear. There was a lot of baddies.

This game was set up for wolfs to win. There was too much random stuff in the game. How could I have expected a role that needed to kill all the scanner in the game. That it, that all he had to do to win. Most of this would have been fine if we had been told in advance, but there was too much sudden stuff to appear that had major impacts on the game.

 

[Yakman]

In defense of Ciryandor and his GM-ing, I must say that despite his games' glaring flaws and their ever-over-reaching setups/rules/themes, that I have always enjoyed them. he has always (and i think this is his 3rd BIG game) tried to push the werewolf model beyond what other GMs have done--and while it usually doesn't work--I think he does a good job of entertaining the players, showing some of the ways that the game can be improved upon (mostly by showing what doesn't work), and creating good opportunities for gaming.

in this game, i particularly liked the fact that the GM only did a final vote count, and didn't show who voted for who, leaving that up to the players. had other things been more open--traits and roles for vote switching/blocking--that may well have made for a much better game.

so, hat's off to CIRYANDOR

 

[AOK. 11]

so, hat's off to CIRYANDOR

Yes. Hats off for a perfect example of what butchering the game looks like. It is not necessary. Good games are created by players, not GMs doing alot of blow and thinking up ways to make the game unrecognizable.

It is so bad this time that other people did most of the complaining for me.

 

[EUROO7]

terrorists win despite euroo7!!! Way to go white daimon and hax!!!!

i r sorry !

Yes. Hats off for a perfect example of what butchering the game looks like. It is not necessary. Good games are created by players, not GMs doing alot of blow and thinking up ways to make the game unrecognizable.

It is so bad this time that other people did most of the complaining for me.

It´s ok to have these kind of games once in a while to remind us why we don´t have these games.

Also:

CONGRATULATIONS HAX
On Your First WW Big Victory!​

You did a very good job.

 

[Eternaly_Lost]

In defense of Ciryandor and his GM-ing, I must say that despite his games' glaring flaws and their ever-over-reaching setups/rules/themes, that I have always enjoyed them. he has always (and i think this is his 3rd BIG game) tried to push the werewolf model beyond what other GMs have done--and while it usually doesn't work--I think he does a good job of entertaining the players, showing some of the ways that the game can be improved upon (mostly by showing what doesn't work), and creating good opportunities for gaming.

in this game, i particularly liked the fact that the GM only did a final vote count, and didn't show who voted for who, leaving that up to the players. had other things been more open--traits and roles for vote switching/blocking--that may well have made for a much better game.

so, hat's off to CIRYANDOR

I do agree that he did push it, but what I think he did wrong was to throw too much in at once, without at least a second person to look over it.

Remember that one of these night, he killed a blessed person because he missed it on his chart. That how much information he was working with, and if the GM had enough trouble keeping track of everyone roles, how are we expect to figure them out?

I am not saying his idea are not good, it just that I think he did too much at once. On the surface this game was reasonable, but underneath there was too much weird stuff all thrown in at once. If he had used half the special roles that he did, thing would be a lot better.

 

[walrus]

You did a very good job.

Despite your best efforts to sabotage him

Edit: And I cannae be arsed to put the next game thread up tonight, I'll do it tomorrow.

 

[Yakman]

I do agree that he did push it, but what I think he did wrong was to throw too much in at once, without at least a second person to look over it.

Remember that one of these night, he killed a blessed person because he missed it on his chart. That how much information he was working with, and if the GM had enough trouble keeping track of everyone roles, how are we expect to figure them out?

I am not saying his idea are not good, it just that I think he did too much at once. On the surface this game was reasonable, but underneath there was too much weird stuff all thrown in at once. If he had used half the special roles that he did, thing would be a lot better.

oh, i totally agree.

he had a good share of crazy things here (and i don't think that i know all of them):

1 - the seers were pack specific (and weren't told this)
2 - the van helsings were scanned baddy (and didn't always work, apparently)
3 - the secret roles/traits
4 - the secret voting (which i really liked)
5 - tons of roles/traits and the doubling/tripling thereof (which i didn't)

now, a GOOD game would probably have just thrown one or maybe two of those in. This was NOT a good game, and he threw all five in (and maybe one or two other things that I know not).

BUT despite all that, I was entertained. admittedly, I was on the side that ultimately won (despite EUROO7's best efforts), but it was fun enough--had we not switched over HAX when we did, the village may well have won.

 

[JDMS]

Wow, what a game.

 

[jacob-Lundgren]

not GMs doing alot of blow

What did you say?? I cut you you cockaroach!

 

[Ciryandor]

I should say that this is my 2nd Big for now, and that I went overboard in the opposite direction of the first game, from too little to too many things to track. I already have a basic set-up (2 packs of 3, 1 regular cultist/pack and a sorc, 2 apprentices 1 seer/priest/ga/doc + 3 leaders and the rest villagers) with two variations (Secret Voting (may be conducive to plotters or silencers) and No Affiliation (with 1 all-powerful seer, doesn't matter much)) I'll use for my next big, so it's not going to be as crazy as this one was. I'd ask for EURO to put me on the Big list again, and the next time, it's going to be as Goldilocks wants it, hope you get the analogy.

 

[Yakman]

ah, but your last big game also had all those crazy rivalries. that didn't break the game, but it certainly made the first few days more than a little zany.

 

[Rysz]

In defense of Ciryandor and his GM-ing, I must say that despite his games' glaring flaws and their ever-over-reaching setups/rules/themes, that I have always enjoyed them. he has always (and i think this is his 3rd BIG game) tried to push the werewolf model beyond what other GMs have done--and while it usually doesn't work--I think he does a good job of entertaining the players, showing some of the ways that the game can be improved upon (mostly by showing what doesn't work), and creating good opportunities for gaming.

in this game, i particularly liked the fact that the GM only did a final vote count, and didn't show who voted for who, leaving that up to the players. had other things been more open--traits and roles for vote switching/blocking--that may well have made for a much better game.

so, hat's off to CIRYANDOR

No, I didn't enjoy this game. There were some memorable moments at updates, but for the most part (both alive and dead), I didn't get a clue what was happening. It was mostly a rollercoaster where you let yourself be taken, not something you can play with/in. As I said, I didn't even want to sub back in, and to me, that says something.

And regarding the final vote count: did ANYONE used that "information" to try and deduct who the plotters were?