Realpolitik - An interactive AAR concept

[TRP]

DEMOCRACY?​

In quite some posts I have noticed much confusion going around, because of some of the decisions which were made. The main problem here is that the government works more as a ministerial dictature as a democracy.

Realpolitik - An interactive AAR concept:
After the elections each party gets ministerial posts assigned. Every of this ministers works on the filed specifically designated for him and has thus dictator like powers on his field. No one actually can object his decisions or decision are not being discussed. If you take a look at the Parliament social group section, you will see that decisions are NOT being voted on or discussed on. That means that because of the nature, the game HOI 2 has, there is only 2 or 3 ministerial posts, where if your party gets a sit, you pretty much rule the game. The others are there, but are mostly representative. So even if you maybe got 10 percent in the elections (In a real democracy, you would actually have a say with that much) and you are a part of the coalition with like 40 percent of all votes, with no ministers in the cabinet you will have no say (I have to confirmation from TRP, that the system works very similar to what I described here - note to TRP, if you don't agree with me, per the way I have written it here, reply). So the democracy in the current AAR, works very similarly to the democracy system in the game Victoria an empire under sun, where if a party gets elected, they have an undisputed rule for the next 4 years (Which is a flawed system).

How real democracy works:
In a real democracy, every party would chose parliament representatives (The number of those depends on how much votes the party got in the elections), which would vote and discuss every law or decisions which a minister or an individual with enough support, would want to get passed. So every party with significant number of votes in the elections would be represented (Which is here not the case).

How democracy should work here:
I will call this the 10+1 voting principle. Its very easy to understand. There are 10 postions in the government, which are assigned by each party regarding on the number of votes they get in the elections and per the agreement with their coalition partners. Because 10 votes could lead to a tie (5-5), the 11th vote would be assigned to TRP at all times, which would pass their vote ONLY if the voting reached a tie. All votes passed would be cast on this thread (AKA public not in some social thread) and each representative would have to present a veiled reason for his decision. That way the AAR would become more interesting and interactive unlike it currently is.

If you agree with this setup I have outlined here, please write that you support it, so the system per which everything works here gets changed (I have the confirmation from TRP, that with enough support on it, they would change the system). The current setup is very dull and works as any other AAR on this forum (Since almost every Kaiserreich AAR on this forum has elections).

We confirm this. Could you make a usergroup so we can see how much support this idea gets?

-Laurence

 

[MisterB]

DNVP is conflicted about the Hermann Göring affair. Göring was making the Afrikan Pearl of the German Empire into a new Leopoldite Congo, he had to be removed. DNVP also agree that his later actions was treason and he should be punished. But Göring is a great hero from the Weltkrieg, should we really condemn a hero to death. Abandon an icon, one who has fought for Germany and the German people?? Should we give the Syndicalists the pleasure of celebrating his death?

DNVP says no, he has to be ounished, but DNVP would be glad if he just got a couple of years' imprisonment.

You say you are afraid that we might give the Syndicalists the pleasure of celebrating his death. You should also be afraid to give the people that suffered might be given the pleasure of knowing that justices was served, or giving the people of Germany the relief of knowing that no man is above the law and corrupt officials will be dealt with. I think that as a nation that upholds justice, we need to set this example! A crime is a crime no matter who does it! Never must we protect crime!

 

[Vesimir]

Is everyone able to participate in the Goring trial mini-game, or is that exclusive to party members?

If everyone like in the elections, then I believe Goring should get a life sentence. Let him rot in prison.

 

[unmerged(62478)]

ATTENTION!​

Per the request of TRP I have established the Pro-Democracy in the Realpolitik - An interactive AAR concept social group, for those who would like to see an increased democratic participation of all parties in the governing of Germany, which is currently not present with TRP confirming this.

You can access and join it via this LINK.

 

[unmerged(129995)]

Re. Delex:

Agreed. It'll make the game more interesting for everybody. The problem with 10+1 is that PCP has 3 votes and LCP has 2 votes, based on percentages, which, in conjunction with DNVP and NUP, brings us back to the 'diktat' problem. If we could have a 20+1 system where every 5% a party has brings them one vote, that could, perhaps, work better? It would look like this, I think:

PCP - 5 (27.74%)
LCP - 4 (20.44%)
DNVP - 1 (6.57%)
NUP - 1 (6.57%)
Iron Fist - 2 (10.22%)
NCRP - 2 (10.98%)
ABNB - 2 (8.76%)
UGSA - 2 (7.3%) if they're still in, if not, I assume those votes goes to ABNB
GLM - 1 (1.46%)

Total - 20 votes

In the 10+1 system, each 10% of a party's votes would be worth 1 vote in Reichstag, which kind of shafts everyone but PCP, LCP, Iron Fist, NCRP, and ABNB.

Thoughts?

 

[unmerged(62478)]

Re. Delex:

Agreed. It'll make the game more interesting for everybody. The problem with 10+1 is that PCP has 3 votes and LCP has 2 votes, based on percentages, which, in conjunction with DNVP and NUP, brings us back to the 'diktat' problem. If we could have a 20+1 system where every 5% a party has brings them one vote, that could, perhaps, work better? It would look like this, I think:

PCP - 5 (27.74%)
LCP - 4 (20.44%)
DNVP - 1 (6.57%)
NUP - 1 (6.57%)
Iron Fist - 2 (10.22%)
NCRP - 2 (10.98%)
ABNB - 2 (8.76%)
UGSA - 2 (7.3%) if they're still in, if not, I assume those votes goes to ABNB
GLM - 1 (1.46%)

Total - 20 votes

In the 10+1 system, each 10% of a party's votes would be worth 1 vote in Reichstag, which kind of shafts everyone but PCP, LCP, Iron Fist, NCRP, and ABNB.

Thoughts?

I would certainly agree, but the problem is that it would make the whole system far too complicated for TRP to manage (Thats the reason why it wasn't implemented from the start). Parties will have to work out deals between coalitions to have the exacts seats. Like your party gets 15 percent and you have 1 coalition partner with 5. You have one sit guaranteed. You can then make a deal with your coalition partner so he gets a sit from your 5 percent or he gives his 5 percent to you so you get 2 sits (Or you get his sit, but he gets a ministerial position in the government, which will be in that case far less powerful, but still usable, since a law or preposition made by a minister has to be voted on, while a law made by an individual needs support before anyone has to do anything about it). I know this system will probably require a mediator, but it can certainly work out and it will also spice things up between coalitions.

 

[unmerged(129995)]

(OOC: and back in character, now)

Herr Goering is a decorated war hero, no doubt. However, even the greatest of us may fall. He has betrayed the trust of the Reichstag. He has stolen from the German people. He has mistreated the Kaiser's subjects. These crimes in and of themselves warrant his removal from any position of authority. However, when Justice reached for him to weigh his crimes upon her scale, he rejected the Fatherland and crushed under his heel all that the Fatherland had given him. No German is above the laws of the Kaiserreich.

 

[yourworstnightm]

DNVP is firmly against bringing Anarchy to Realpolitik. The 20+1 votes system can be accepted, but not the 10+1.

 

[Hax]

Göring trial:
I think Göring shall get a half year of prison and be banned to step his foot on Africa.
He is a war hero from WW1, he should absolutely not be executed.
Are we more bad then the French?
Philippe Pétain where never executed, his punishment where changed to life jail.
Are we worse then the french syndies? NOO!
Göring shall be respected, his air skills must be used!

Only 1 year jail for him!

 

[unmerged(169228)]

Göring was a brave pilot once, flying under the Red Barons command. Unfortunately his current crimes are very grave: High Treason, Crimes against Humanity, Abuse of Power, Embezzlement, Theft of State Recources.

Mittelafrika was never ment as a new Congo-freestate, it was an administrative creation of the great Lettow-Vorbeck to keep our African colonies governable, akin to British India. Göring turned this plan into an abberation.

Thegovernment believes that Göring deserves a fair trial, just as any other man would receive, but his crimes are grave and there aremountains of evidence against the man.

 

[Hax]

Crimes against Humanity, Theft of State Resources
Could you show proof of this!
Don't accuse the man for something he have not done.

I wonder if Göring have any poison

 

[TRP]

ATTENTION!​

Per the request of TRP I have established the Pro-Democracy in the Realpolitik - An interactive AAR concept social group, for those who would like to see an increased democratic participation of all parties in the governing of Germany, which is currently not present with TRP confirming this.

You can access and join it via this LINK.

Looks like your movement is growing, Delex

Crimes against Humanity, Theft of State Resources
Could you show proof of this!
Don't accuse the man for something he have not done.

I wonder if Göring have any poison

Evidence arrived from Mittelafrika shortly after his arrest. You can check the gameplay update for that.

-Laurence

 

[unmerged(129995)]

Crimes against Humanity, Theft of State Resources
Could you show proof of this!
Don't accuse the man for something he have not done.

I wonder if Göring have any poison

Abwehr demonstrated absolute evidence of his treachery.

(OOC: TRP says it happened, so it happened :rofl

Regarding Italy, Ottomans, and Namibia, they are being debated in Cabinet, and once we've come to a compromise acceptable to us, we'll bring our proposal before the Reichstag.

(OOC again: TRP, given that we've answered the 'Rogue Politician' twice now...)

 

[unmerged(129995)]

I would certainly agree, but the problem is that it would make the whole system far too complicated for TRP to manage (Thats the reason why it wasn't implemented from the start). Parties will have to work out deals between coalitions to have the exacts seats. Like your party gets 15 percent and you have 1 coalition partner with 5. You have one sit guaranteed. You can then make a deal with your coalition partner so he gets a sit from your 5 percent or he gives his 5 percent to you so you get 2 sits (Or you get his sit, but he gets a ministerial position in the government, which will be in that case far less powerful, but still usable, since a law or preposition made by a minister has to be voted on, while a law made by an individual needs support before anyone has to do anything about it). I know this system will probably require a mediator, but it can certainly work out and it will also spice things up between coalitions.

Well, rounding's always acceptable. The way I had it done at first, the number of seats added up to 19, so I found the 1-seat party closest to 2 seats (UGSA) and bumped them up to 2.

Also: If it's not much trouble, can we get our government's slider positions under the Cabinet listing in the index, TRP? I still don't know what they are... :rofl:

 

[Asalto]

Here's an idea: What do you think about establishment of supreme court? This is special AAR about democracy. We have elected legislative branch of power, Kaiser is executive branch of power, but where are laws? It is a great shame that our people are not protected with laws and constitution. Is this moderate German state or some kind of Asian dictatorship where word of leader is considered as law? Germany is not Mongolia, why is some kind of autocratic junta making private trials about destiny of people?

Those are my suggestions:

1.We need constitution. We need group of wise people that will make such important text. Then we will confirm new constitution on plebiscite. We need to include rights and duties of German people, balance of power, organisation of goverment, institutions of state...

2.We need supreme court. Judges should be elected by people and confirmed by Kaiser. This court shall protect our constitutional order and judge in most important cases. I think that there should be at least 3-9 judges. For example, part of judges would be nominated by Kaiser, part of them by leader of strongest party and one part by people.

What do you think?

 

[Avatar Federal]

An Appeal To The German People

Herr Goring, should not be the man on trial. The man on trial should be great_chairman, and FlyingDutchie, for their efforts to weaken Germany.

Herr Goring, was and is a brave man committed to fighting for our Kaiser and German interests. His exemplary record flying during the Weltkrieg is an illustration of how committed he is to fighting the enemies of the Reich.

Make no mistake men and women of the Kaiserreich, Goring is not the man who should be on trial. Goring's efforts in resisting decolonization were of a higher and purer form of patriotism than loyalty to the whims of a coalition bent on weakening German hegemony.

Goring's rejection of the Muller Plan provides a shining example of how Germans ought act against all those who try to restrict Germany's growth.

When forced to decide between loyalty to Germany and the German peoples, or loyalty to the liberal weaklings of the Reichstag, Goring made the right choice to reject the Muller Plan, and protect German interests.
While I do not, and never will condone rebellion against the German Government, Goring was not fomenting a rebellion, merely rejecting a path which many members of this Reichstag disagree with.


There were no reasons to overthrow his legitimate governance over Mittelafrika, he wanted to expand the interests of German people.

The men who ought be tried with High Treason are great_chairman, and FlyingDutchie, they are weakening German strength and access to critical resources. Many of us have realized the plans they have for Germany are a weakened state, moaning and begging for allies.

If you want to see Germany begging for help, and mewling like an infant, by all means indict Herr Goring. But if like me, you realize and hear a higher call to protect and expand Germany, till all of the Germans in Mitteleuropa, Switzerland, Netherlands, Scandinavia, and Amerika are unified, then recognize Goring for what he is, a man not loyal to the whims of the decadent and corrupt PCP and LCP, but a man loyal to Germany, to the Kaiser, and to all the Germanic peoples.

He deserves innocence, for he has done no wrong, unlike the ruling coalition of the Reichstag.

 

[JRHINDO]

I left to fight the reds in russia again and find germany in a crysis!
This wouldnt have happened if the NCRP-Iron Fist alliance were in power.

(We should make a special forum for this AAR, to contain the spam, debates, flame wars there, and only post the "official" announcements here.)

 

[OAM]

I left to fight the reds in russia again and find germany in a crysis!
This wouldnt have happened if the NCRP-Iron Fist alliance were in power.

(We should make a special forum for this AAR, to contain the spam, debates, flame wars there, and only post the "official" announcements here.)

We're already using TGG/DLL forums quite a bit, I'm sure we could have a spam topic there.

 

[Hax]

Göring would never revolt if not the Muller Plane where made!
The government have failed! AGAIN!
And now you accuse him for your crimes!
BE Ashamed, PCP aren't you conservatives?
Why are you then giving colonies if you are so conservatives then!
HAH ANSWER THAT!


JRHINDO welcome back!

 

[unmerged(129995)]

Herr Goring, should not be the man on trial. The man on trial should be great_chairman, and FlyingDutchie, for their efforts to weaken Germany.

Herr Goring, was and is a brave man committed to fighting for our Kaiser and German interests. His exemplary record flying during the Weltkrieg is an illustration of how committed he is to fighting the enemies of the Reich.

Make no mistake men and women of the Kaiserreich, Goring is not the man who should be on trial. Goring's efforts in resisting decolonization were of a higher and purer form of patriotism than loyalty to the whims of a coalition bent on weakening German hegemony.

Goring's rejection of the Muller Plan provides a shining example of how Germans ought act against all those who try to restrict Germany's growth.

When forced to decide between loyalty to Germany and the German peoples, or loyalty to the liberal weaklings of the Reichstag, Goring made the right choice to reject the Muller Plan, and protect German interests.
While I do not, and never will condone rebellion against the German Government, Goring was not fomenting a rebellion, merely rejecting a path which many members of this Reichstag disagree with.


There were no reasons to overthrow his legitimate governance over Mittelafrika, he wanted to expand the interests of German people.

The men who ought be tried with High Treason are great_chairman, and FlyingDutchie, they are weakening German strength and access to critical resources. Many of us have realized the plans they have for Germany are a weakened state, moaning and begging for allies.

If you want to see Germany begging for help, and mewling like an infant, by all means indict Herr Goring. But if like me, you realize and hear a higher call to protect and expand Germany, till all of the Germans in Mitteleuropa, Switzerland, Netherlands, Scandinavia, and Amerika are unified, then recognize Goring for what he is, a man not loyal to the whims of the decadent and corrupt PCP and LCP, but a man loyal to Germany, to the Kaiser, and to all the Germanic peoples.

He deserves innocence, for he has done no wrong, unlike the ruling coalition of the Reichstag.

Excuse me? Who was stealing from the German people again? Who was brutally oppressing the Kaiser's subjects again? Let us ignore whether he is guilty of treason or not, for the moment. Surely, in the face of incontestable evidence (OOC: TRP said it's true :rofl, we can all agree that at the very least, Goering was a brute, a liar, and a thief?

Regarding Germany's colonies, the Prussian Conservative Party stands by the teachings of Otto von Bismarck. One of his most famous sayings was "My map of Africa lies in Europe" - he stood against colonial adventurism. Why should Germany wander around the world, when it is in Europe that great issues are decided? Why should Germany spread its assets so thin, when Germany proper is in crisis?

OOC: look guys, we've got confirmation that he DID do what we're accusing him of. The only thing that should really be in question at this moment is the charge of treason.