• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
Le Jones, your characterisation of the man is singularly brilliant - the tight purse, the banal mystery novels, the hunting metaphors, etc - and that's not what I was referring to as, definitely, it's nice to read a characterisation of him that gets his peaks, troughs, pros and cons, rather than just painting him as the typical appeasement Beelzebub. As I said, and as El Pip said in his last post on the matter, it's down to whether you feel intentions are worth taking into account when you judge a person - I personally feel that, yes, they can be. I'd rather strive to do good and fall short than the opposite, and for me that's Halifax. Much-maligned, yes - not a perfect figure by any means, and certainly not my first choice in a game of "if only they'd been PM" (Charles Kennedy or John Smith, by the way) or anything.

Meanwhile, in this reality, Italy continues to baffle, surprise and annoy. Italy's a favourite of mine to play, and they have a wealth of options for the savvy strategist, so to see them just sitting on their behinds doing... nothing whatsoever, well grr. Especially because, with the Pacific theatre rolling on at the speed of an asthmatic ant with some heavy shopping, Germany rolling the USSR back across the Balkans, and British foreign policy towards Germany as likely to move as a Frenchman who lives next door to a brothel (it's a Blackadder reference two-for-one bonanza!) the Med is one of the better places to look for some British action... except Mussolini seems to have forgotten he's got an army and is probably getting his domestic bods to build bridges while he spends all day in the mirror, practising his macho hands-on-hips pose. Grr and grr again.
 
:eek:

Oh my, I think he underestimates the American interest in seeing an open market in Asia...

TheExecuter

Seconded.

Halifax is I supposed so miffed at his peace ovetures being rebuffed he's hoping for more dead Russians & Germans out of spite and nothing else ...

Something of a surprise re: Italy, but things are breaking right for defence of the Far East (if it comes to that).
 
certainly not my first choice in a game of "if only they'd been PM" (Charles Kennedy or John Smith, by the way) or anything.
That explains so much. While Drunken Charlie would have been amusing as PM I shudder to think at the quite horrific damage the 'Not Liberal At All' Democrats would have done to the country. :eek:

John Smith though I'm entirely unsure on. Certainly he would have been better than Blair and Brown, but that statement applies to about 99% of the country so is hardly a ringing endorsement. The question is how do you separate out his actual ability from nostalgic hindsight and flattering comparisons to his successors? His untimely death and position to the left of Blair means he's a perfect canvas to paint many people's 'ideal' Labour leader onto regardless of how accurate such a portrait is.

My own view is badly skewed as a John Smith premiership would have killed dead the chance of Gordon Brown as PM, an outcome so marvellous I think Smith could have done anything and still emerge heavily in credit.
 
My impression is that Halifax expected failure, but not to be ignored.

I'm thinking though, with the War in China all but concluded, and both the US and Britain at peace and re-arming, would Japan really try to attack? Would seem even more suicidial than normal I think? If they could split the anglo-americans up and take on one at a time maybe... But I don't think even the japanese would be stupid enough to take on both at the same time, while they are at peace, and when China is more or less subdued.
 
I think they would, because the basic problems that 'forced' them to go south haven't changed yet that much if I am not mistaken.
 
I think they would, because the basic problems that 'forced' them to go south haven't changed yet that much if I am not mistaken.
There's an argument to be made that the Japanese Northerner/Southerner strategic debate is over with the northerners winning. The Japanese python needs some time, maybe a decade, to digest its Chinese victim and the world can sit back and watch the Nazis and the Reds destroy one other.
On the other hand, the Japanese have never been immune to hubris and may gamble while their dice are hot that they can win the whole "Eight Corners Of The World".
 
You'd suspect they'd at least TRY to do everything they could to split the anglo-americans up (not that they aren't doing a good job of that themselves!) fighting them both while neither of them is occupied elsewhere seems foolhardy even for the Japanese. I could see them taking out one while making frantic efforts to keep the other neutral though.
 
That explains so much. While Drunken Charlie would have been amusing as PM I shudder to think at the quite horrific damage the 'Not Liberal At All' Democrats would have done to the country. :eek:

There's a difference between a non-functioning alcoholic and a functioning one - probably half of this country's pre-war leaders were in the same position as Kennedy (Churchill to name the most obvious) so on a personal level I don't think it's a huge deal apart from in the obvious PR sense, and whether or not the Liberal Democrats would do damage to the country is down to what you qualify as 'damage,' which is ideological. Personally, I think not having gone to war in Iraq, a more robust taxation of the super-wealthy, electoral reform and the replacement of the Lords with an elected upper chamber, and the scrapping of Trident would be steps forward.

John Smith though I'm entirely unsure on. Certainly he would have been better than Blair and Brown, but that statement applies to about 99% of the country so is hardly a ringing endorsement. The question is how do you separate out his actual ability from nostalgic hindsight and flattering comparisons to his successors? His untimely death and position to the left of Blair means he's a perfect canvas to paint many people's 'ideal' Labour leader onto regardless of how accurate such a portrait is.

My own view is badly skewed as a John Smith premiership would have killed dead the chance of Gordon Brown as PM, an outcome so marvellous I think Smith could have done anything and still emerge heavily in credit.

Maybe. You separate out his ability from the nostalgia by looking at his record as Party Leader (the abolition of the union block voting leading to 'one member, one vote' and his performances in the Commons, etc), and the Labour party's performances in polls under his leadership, etc. By the same token, you could ask how you separate out Cameron's abilities from the fact that he's 'not Gordon Brown,' which seems to be the only reason the majority of people are considering voting for him.

But, then again, my own view on Brown is equally skewed, because it's almost certainly going to lead to an Eton Dave premiership, an outcome so ghastly I'm actually starting to have nightmares.
 
an outcome so ghastly I'm actually starting to have nightmares.
I can see that is unfortunate, especially as you then wake up and see Labour still in power doing their best to turn the days into nightmares as well. Still Dave as PM will force you to confront your prejudices and stop judging people purely on their education, that's discrimination don't you know? :p

It could be worse though, you could have an ideology but no party and trust me that is most envexing. :(

Japan - Can you split the US from Britain though? There's no point just attacking the US unless you value the Philippines, which seems unlikely. The only real target of a strike south is the DEI and Malaya, so you could try and attack Britain/Dutch alone, but you would be gambling on the US not getting involved AND leaving the PI as the feared 'knife at our throat'.

Thus I don't think Japan will actually bother much with trying to split up the UK-US as I can't see what the advantage is for them when any war plan will probably involve having to attack both of them.
 
I can see that is unfortunate, especially as you then wake up and see Labour still in power doing their best to turn the days into nightmares as well. Still Dave as PM will force you to confront your prejudices and stop judging people purely on their education, that's discrimination don't you know? :p

It could be worse though, you could have an ideology but no party and trust me that is most envexing. :(
It's not discrimination if we're, as a nation, considering reverting back to putting our lives in the hands of the same nasty old ruling elite that it took us centuries to escape from - that's what we call a 'step backwards' you know. :p

Besides, it's okay to make fun of the Eton thing if he's so cripplingly embarassed about it and goes to extreme lengths to avoid anybody ever mentioning the public school thing. If he was less touchy about it, I'd have more respect for him, but as it stands it's a fairly cynical populist move on his part to try and connect with the 'common man,' or 'lowly prole' as I'm sure he actually refers to us. One-nation Tory paternalism is bad enough, but trying to dress it up by pretending you're 'just like us' as well is plain offensive.

Seriously though, I'm really not prejudiced. I judge Cameron politically not on his education (this is just a personal thing) but based on his staggering lack of policy, that I disagree with the smattering of policies he has actually come out with, and the fact that I don't have any faith in the Tories whether under his leadership or not. You can give an old whore a facelift, but she's still an old whore, y'know?

Reverting to the topic a little, especially in the world Le Jones has created, with Britain not at war in Europe and Anglo-American relations not being as prized so highly by Whitehall as in our reality, the smart thing for Japan to do would be to try and take the DEI and British holdings first, quickly, banking on the Anglo-American understanding being shaky enough to not lead to decisive action - that way, when the Americans do get involved, they've mostly overrun the other players in the region. As the AAR has discussed, Britain's position in the Pacific is not well-fortified, and recent efforts to improve affairs have an air of 'too little, too late' about them. I hope that the upcoming spot of 'tank diplomacy' will go some way to rectifying this.
 
All I know about British politics I learned by reading "1066 And All That", watching "The Avengers" and spending a night of serious drinking with some British Army officers in Colchester. So I don't think I'm qualified to contribute.

Gamewise, I wonder what effect the non-role of the torpedo planes in the non-sinking of the Bismarck and the non-raid on Taranto not carried out by the Royal Navy has had on Japanese thinking about the employment of carriers. There's a lot less empirical data on which to base carrier doctrine.
 
Depends on the quality of the brothel, I'd say. One needs to be picky about such things.

Something I'd like to add:

Heaven to me is a volcano spewing up fine wine all the time and a brothel of the most excellent quality. Hell is basically the same thing except the wine is bad and everybody in the brothel has STDs. :p
 
Gamewise, I wonder what effect the non-role of the torpedo planes in the non-sinking of the Bismarck and the non-raid on Taranto not carried out by the Royal Navy has had on Japanese thinking about the employment of carriers. There's a lot less empirical data on which to base carrier doctrine.

AFAIK all the carrier powers featured massed torpedo strikes in their doctrines and war-games between the wars, so not too much different I'd think. [The RN was probably the leader in multi-carrier ops for awhile in the 30s, but early losses plus the stretch of a 3-front war meant this could never be put into practice.] True that the IJN picked up the trick for shallow runners from Taranto.
 
A masterful update.
 
AFAIK all the carrier powers featured massed torpedo strikes in their doctrines and war-games between the wars, so not too much different I'd think. True that the IJN picked up the trick for shallow runners from Taranto.
I'm not so sure, most of the Japanese carrier fleet was conversion of other vessels. In terms of actual intended construction the IJN was very much hedging its bets between carriers and battleships; the Yamatos were part of the same build programme as the Shokaku class.

Assuming the start of the war was as OTL then carriers are not looking a good bet; Courageous gone to a sub and Glorious by a battlecruiser. For those so inclined the conclusion is carriers aren't any good in practice, go for battleships. Certainly the RN appears to have gone that way, relegating CVs to a purely supporting role. Without hunt the Bismark and Taranto to shows what a CV can do I'd expect the carrier advocates to be really struggling.
 
My impression is that Halifax expected failure, but not to be ignored.

I'm thinking though, with the War in China all but concluded, and both the US and Britain at peace and re-arming, would Japan really try to attack? Would seem even more suicidial than normal I think? If they could split the anglo-americans up and take on one at a time maybe... But I don't think even the japanese would be stupid enough to take on both at the same time, while they are at peace, and when China is more or less subdued.

Perhaps the Japanese might not be stupid enough, but Japan AI is a different story.
 
Although those surface attacks have sent a precident, I still think the theorists represent a sound argument for using aircraft within this context. I would say however that they would favour the use of the torpedo over bombs (and consequently dive bombing) as the question of using bombing to sink armoured warships has yet to be really decided, whereas the use of torpedoes, at least in theory (and although an air dropped torpedo is usually smaller), they represent a method which has a sound basis.
 
Chapter 148, London, 19 October 1941

NewPicture8-12.png


Butler was enjoying a pleasant enough afternoon. There was little to trouble him at the Foreign Office and so he had declared that he had a headache and retired home to read the papers and to enjoy an evening free from the endless red boxes. His staff were used to this petulant behaviour, and with a grumpy Sir Alec Cadogan “holding the fort” Butler had slipped away to his apartment in Lambeth.

He flicked through the newspapers, noting with dismay that the Beaverbrook press had definitely, to use a Halifax hunting metaphor, “got the scent of the quarry” and were trying to exploit weaknesses in the Government. They were cruelly mocking Templewood’s faltering Industrial strategy (though Stanley’s economic policies were applauded) and were savage in their portrayal of Butler and his attempts at diplomacy. Butler was chillingly reminded of two years ago, 1939, where he and the other Foreign Office ministers had felt the inevitable slide to war. Chamberlain had been swiftly and completely overtaken by the dramatic events and the press hysteria. And now, laughing at the silence coming from the Foreign Office, they sought to bring pressure upon Halifax. And the stupid bloody thing is that I can never win. If I act I am portrayed as weak, if I don’t act I am again portrayed as weak. He felt that he had been wronged by the increasingly vocal hawks in the Party, and their powerful friends. The funny thing, and Butler’s last hope, was that there was no war that Britain could possibly enter in to. The Germans and the Russians would kill each other regardless of whether Eden sent the BEF in. The Italians were seemingly well-behaved, listening either to British reason or German bullying (Butler didn’t care which one it was). And in the Far East, despite the press prophecies of looming cataclysm, the Japanese were still serenely friendly to the Empire and to America.

The phone rang and Butler wandered over, picking it up with a heavy sigh. “Butler here,” he said drowsily, stifling a yawn.

“Foreign Secretary,” the clipped tones of Sir Alec Cadogan, Permanent Under Secretary, stated coolly. “I thought you would like to know that I’ve just taken a call from Sir Robert Craigie.”

Butler struggled to place the name, then remembered that Craigie was British Ambassador to Japan. “Whashap,” he coughed, “what’s happened?”

“Well, it appears that there’s been a change of Government over there. There’s a new Prime Minister.”

“Christ,” Butler said with some feeling. “What do we know?”

“Not a lot” Cadogan said bluntly. Butler could imagine him, squiting over his glasses as the messages came in. “But the Prime Minister has got wind of it. One of our chaps let the secret out when he was taking some routine stuff over there. I’m sorry,” he added the last bit with a hint of feeling.

“We’d better let Menzies know. Can’t help to have the Head of Intelligence unawares and all that. I’ll give you a call when I get back from dinner.”

“Dinner? Foreign Secretary, might I enquire where you are dining?” Cadogan’s tone was terse. Butler imagined him rubbing his tired eyes.

“Yes, I have been invited to dinner by Lincoln’s Inn and I bloody well intend to go.”

“In which case I shall tell the Prime Minister that he can bloody well wait,” Cadogan said acidly, but Butler had already hung up.


NewPicture9-12.png



Not far away, Major-General Menzies sank his head in his hands. He had failed, utterly and totally, to see that a change in the Japanese Government was looming. As he looked out over the fading sun and the wintry London streets he cursed his staff for relying on Craigie’s telephone call to pass on the news. He had this evening, he realised, to turn this intelligence disaster into something of value to the Government.

“Cullen,” he muttered to a civil servant, “call Downing Street and arrange a briefing to the PM. Butler and Dill too I should think. Get through to the Embassy in Tokyo; I need a brief to deliver tomorrow!”

The evening was spent in anxious preparation. Whilst Halifax and Butler snored in their beds the Combined Intelligence Staff hurried to arm their boss with the information necessary to see him appear confident. By daybreak, when a fresh, if apprehensive Menzies entered his office he had a crisp, newly printed assessment to deliver. Nodding in satisfaction, Menzies looked at his watch. He had an hour to learn his lines.

“Pway gentlemen, be seated,” Halifax said as he, Butler, Eden Dill and Templewood (there at Halifax’s insistence as he grew increasingly worried over the loyalty of his Cabinet) gathered in the Cabinet Room. It was a little past nine in the morning, and the air outside was bright and crisp. Halifax, normally so parsimonious, was feeling the bitter autmumnal cold and so had ordered Cole to light a coal fire. Halifax looked down at his copy of the CIS Report. “Major Genewal Menzies,” he said crisply.

“Prime Minister, Sirs, as you aware there has been some change in the Government of Japan. Understandably, the report of Sir Robert Craigie was sketchy at best,” Menzies softened the blow of his failure by a deft dumping of the blame for the lack of information upon Craigie. “This assessment will flesh out the bones of developments over there. Sirs, it is rapidly becoming evident that Prime Minister Konoe has been replaced as Prime Minister. His replacement is Tojo.”

“Who is Tojo?” Templewood asked the question innocently, almost like a child.

Menzies raised a hand as he looked down at his notes. “If I may, Lord Templewood, I’m getting to that in a minute. As you know, Sirs, there has been rising tension between the United States and Japan in recent months. After the combined Anglo-American trading embargo the Japanese were in a difficult position, having only limited resources of their own. They therefore had to negotiate with the Americans.”

“And ourselves,” Butler added.

“Indeed Sir. The Prime Minister, Konoe, seems to have impressed everyone with his desire for peace. Our contacts in the American State Department have stated that their Ambassador over there, Grew, held him in high regard.”

“So what went wong?” Halifax wasn’t being obstinate: he was genuinely intrigued.

“It would appear that the hardliners in the military brought matters to a head. They have recently held some sort of meeting where the crises facing their country must have been discussed?”

“Must have been? You’re saying you don’t know?” That was Dill.

“Well Sir John, we know that Tojo Hideki, the Army Minister, is probably the one who spoke out. We can guess that he argued that a more robust approach to dealing with the Americans is what’s called for.”

“So we can expect a long list of demands, then,” Halifax said with a groan.

“Indeed My Lord. Prime Minister Konoe has resigned, probably as a result of whatever was decided at that meeting a few days ago, and the Emperor has appointed General Tojo.”

“Was he the obvious choice?”

“No Lord Templewood, that is what has taken us by surprise. Our agent in Tokyo had reckoned that a Prince Higashikuni would be appointed.”

Butler turned to look at Eden, who had been noticeably quiet throughout the discussions. “This could impact on their behaviour when you meet with them,” he said with a mocking tone to his voice.

Eden nodded. “It makes it all the more important for me to get to look ‘em in the eye.” His confident air silenced Butler.

Halifax was keen to move on to other matters. “Well, it appears to me that we need to have Cwaigie make an official call upon the new Pwime Minister. Let him know that Bwitain wishes peace.” He pointed a bony finger at Eden. “But you had better be pwepared for a twialling time in Washington,” he said with feeling.

“Oh I will,” Eden said defiantly. “Oh I will.”

[Game Effect] – All change in Japan as the British struggle to find out exactly what’s going on.

I recommend a recent update in Trekaddict’s “Against all the odds” for an alternative look at this thorny subject – Britain’s relations with Japan. Here, in the sorry tale that is KFM, the British are caught unawares as Tojo takes power and the future of the Pacific looks bleak indeed. Menzies and the Combined Intelligence Staff – supposedly tying together the leadership of MI5, MI6, the Foreign Office and others, essentially a slightly stronger version of the Joint Intelligence Committee, has made its first blunder. I wanted to show that nothing everything works well. Menzies has had some earlier successes, most notably in his assessment of the plight of the Dutch East Indies, but the change of government in Tokyo has caught him. To the credit of the Intel chaps, their centralised system means that information is quickly (ie overnight) acquired and cobbled together into a reasonable brief for the Chief of the Intelligence Staff (CIS) to present.

There are a hundred and one directions in which the Pacific situation might go. I am convinced that in this game the AI got it vaguely correct but will ‘window-dress’ it to reflect some of the finer points. But with Tojo coming to power, it all looks very bleak.

Trekaddict: Oh yes...

Kurt_Steiner: Well, sadly for the Itais it looks like being a choice between sitting in Rome enjoying the weather or getting slaughtered in the frozen wastes of Russia. Some choice!

TheExecuter: I think he does, and I think that wider still, Halifax is all over the place when it comes to his handling of the Japanese.

Atlantic Friend: Yes and no. Legally Italy was awarded the right to what she liked to Syria and Lebanon, and whilst France still has Madagascar, Morrocco, Tunisia, Algeria, good old French Guina, and a couple of islands here and there, the loss of so much territory must smart. So France became Germany’s best friend and sent a hell of a lot of military units to Barbarossa – and actually the Finnish debacle aside I think that French support would have a huge impact on Germany’s chances. I have to confess that the possibility for covert support from Paris to her former colonies (maybe with the lure of some sort of reconciliation/French protection after the defeat of Italy) was something I had never even thought of. I smell a France update coming up and I would love to hear your views on what/who you’d like to see.

Nathan Madien: The impact of a few dozen divisions may help the Germans, but I see your point about Italy’s help hardly being essential!

Zhuge Liang: As I said above, I think that the British policy towards Japan has more problems than a Prince Phillip diplomatic visit. I agree – the Japanese would not be this forgiving, and after China, Indochina, Manchuria, the DEI, Halifax should really know better.

El Pip: Butler continues his decline, whilst Halifax’s decision was probably more wiliness – looking sharply at the negative domestic view of diplomatic involvement, rather than a change of ideology.

Bafflegab: I think that Halifax has to be pragmatic here – further diplomatic adventures would split the Party (Eden would resign for a start, and I think that Stanley and possibly Hankey would go) and with Halifax’s grip on power so tenuous he’d have to listen to the Cabinet. He is increasingly bound by the Party voice, and to be honest has done well to survive this far.

4077th: Well Sir, many thanks for the compliment. I, like you, find the man fascinating. Flawed, yes, but no worse than so many other politicians. As for Italy, as I’ve said I had to pretty much lead Italy in doing anything. Though she has one surprise left to play, in December.

DonnieBaseball: The lack of a war in the Med gives the RN a lot to be happy about. With enough capital ships to have an impressive presence in the Far East any Pacific War would be very different from the rather puny Force Z.

El Pip: I think that the death of John Smith probably ranks as one the biggest single nation-changing events in our recent history. Under Smith, who almost certainly would have won a decent enough majority in the 1997 election, I think that we would have seen a very different “noughties”. Certainly devolution, increased involvement in Europe and some form of “war on terror” would have happened, but Smith wouldn’t have gone for Iraq (I think) and would have probably argued with Clinton and Bush on a load of things. This link http://theappallingstrangeness.blogspot.com/2006/05/what-if-prime-minister-john-smith.html has a good story on this.

Arilou: A good point: he wanted to give it a go, but after Munich and Milan mistakenly thought that he would have been listened to with respect.

Trekaddict: But would the US fight a war to defend the British Empire? And would Halifax support Roosevelt even if Britain wasn’t attacked?

MITSGS John: I’m not saying anything. But it’s on its way, soon.

Arilou: And here we have the tempting prospect of a Japanese deal with either the UK or US staying neutral whilst the Japanese go after the other. But would they be successful?

4077th: It’s a horrible dilemma – the loathsome PM or the rather oily Conservative. I’m leaning to the Conservatives as I could actually cry at the way in which Labour has emasculated this country. But as I’m basing my views on negative reasons – in that I’m voting for the “I’m not Gordon Brown” candidate rater than out of any real faith in Cameron. God help us all.

El Pip: I agree that the Japanese wouldn’t bother with any great attempt to separate the US/UK. They’re still only vaguely cooperative and are a long way from any workable alliance.

Atlantic Friend: Oh dear...

4077th: The “too little, too late” theme is correct. Both politically and militarily, the British are in trouble. The Empire is so obviously the weaker power to us, but is that how it comes across to the Japanese?

MITSGS John: Good point on the lack of carrier warfare – hmmn, going to think about this.

Gaiasabre11: You Sir, are a philosopher indeed.

DonnieBaseball: A good point, I wonder whether the Japanese aren’t heading that way anyway, but you may be correct.

Sir Humphrey: Many thanks!

El Pip: I’m really not sure. But this could really impact upon what’s looming over the horizon. Hmmn.

Nathan Madien: And there, Sir, you have hit upon my dilemma.

Sir Humphrey: I think that the Japs would try absolutely everything in a war against the US/UK.

Enewald: There’s life in the old lion yet!