• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Tinto Maps #1 - 10th of May 2024

Hello everybody, and welcome to the first post of Tinto Maps! This is a new weekly series that we will be running about the top-secret game Project Caesar.

Let me introduce myself before I continue, as some of you may get to know me from the development of the latest EUIV DLCs, but I might not be as well-known to everyone as Johan. I’m Pavía, the Content Design Lead at Paradox Tinto, which I joined in 2021. Before becoming a videogame developer, my background was as a Historian, which led me to work on a PhD. in Medieval History (fool me!), which I finished in 2020. Besides that, I’ve spent several thousands of hours of my life playing Paradox GSGs since I discovered and started playing Europa Universalis 20 years ago, in 2004.

What this new series will be about is quite straightforward: each week I will be sharing with you maps of a new different region, so you have an outlook of them and we are able to receive early feedback (because as you may already know from Johan’s Tinto Talks, there is still a lot of WIP stuff ongoing).

About this feedback, we’d like you to take into account a couple of things. The first is that we’ve worked really hard to gather the best sources of information available to craft the best possible map; we used GIS tools with several layers of historical map sources from academic works, geographical data, administrative data, etc., to help us ensure the desired quality. So we would appreciate getting specific suggestions backed by these types of sources, as others (let’s say, a Wikipedia map or YouTube video with no references) may not be reliable enough. The second thing to comment on is that sometimes a certain decision we made was an interpretation over an unclear source, while sometimes we have just plainly made some errors when crafting the map (which on a 30,000 location map is a normal thing, I guess). I’ll let you know when any of these happen, and I’m also going to ask for your understanding when an error or bug is found and confirmed as such.

With those forewords said, let’s start with today’s region: the Low Countries! This is what the political map looks like:

Countries.png

The regional situation in 1337. The counties of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeeland are ruled by William of Avesnes, who is married to Joanna, daughter of Duke John III of Brabant. Another John, the Duke of Luxembourg, might be the strongest power, as he is also the King of Bohemia. The County of Flanders is the wealthiest country in the region, controlling such important cities as Brugge and Ghent. Up in the north, we have other interesting countries, such as the Bishopric of Utrecht or the Republic of Frisia (you might notice that we're using a dynamic custom country name for them, 'Frisian Freedom').

And here we have the locations:

Locations.png

We had a fun bug for some time - Antwerpen didn’t have any pixels connected to the sea, which we found because we couldn’t build any type of port building there. There’s a happy ending, as the bug has already been corrected, and Antwerpen can finally have a proper port!

Provinces:

Provinces.jpg


Terrain (Climate, Topography, and Vegetation):

Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

We are aware that the Netherlands looked differently in the 14th century, as several land reclamations took place during the Late Medieval and Early Modern periods, but we are using a 20th-century version of the map for the sake of consistency. Most of the regions throughout the world would look quite different from nowadays, and documenting those changes (especially the coastline shapes) would be a non-trivial problem to resolve. As a side note, we already removed Flevoland from it, and have already identified some other modern ones that slipped through and we'll eventually remove them, as well.

Cultures:

Cultures.png

The stripes mean that there are pops of different culture inhabiting in those location. Also, the German and French cultures are WIP, we’ll show you a proper version on later Tinto Maps.

Religions:

Religions.png

Not many religions here yet, although there will be interesting religious stuff happening eventually…

Raw Goods:

Goods.png

Goods get regularly swapped around here and there to have a balance between geographical and historical accuracy, and gameplay purposes. So take this as the far-from-final current version of them.

And an additional map for this week:

Markets.png

We reinstated a Low Countries market centered on Antwerpen, after doing some balance tweaks that made it more viable.

And these are the maps for today! I hope that you have a nice weekend, and next Friday, we will travel down south, to Iberia!
 

Attachments

  • Climate.jpg
    Climate.jpg
    357,1 KB · Views: 0
  • Topography.jpg
    Topography.jpg
    402,8 KB · Views: 0
  • Vegetation.jpg
    Vegetation.jpg
    414,6 KB · Views: 0
Last edited:
  • 326Love
  • 124Like
  • 6
  • 3
  • 1
Reactions:
Thank you so much for this ! I'm so excited for the game and honoured to be featured in the first Tinto map !

As for the usual nerdy and insuferable needpick : I think the location of "Wavre", in Brabant, just south of Brussels should probably be "Nivelles" Instead.

This location roughly correspond to the small Walloon part of the duchy of Brabant, which was called the "Roman payis" (Roman Country). And Nivelles was definitely its most important city. Wavre on the other hand, wasn't really that important, even, if today it's the capital city of the province in modern day Belgium. Genappe could also be a better pick as its where the representative of the dukes of Brabant held its court for the Roman payis.

But Nivelles is more well-known and relevant. You can see here its signature building and a masterpiece of Ottonian architecture in Belgium :

Collegiate Church of St. Gertrude, Nivelles


Thank you again for this beautiful work and congrats on representing Liege's borders in a good way ! That mustn't have been easy.
 
  • 2Haha
  • 1Like
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:
I learned to not be optimist, but it would be awesome for the imersion if the player were allowed to interfere in the map. For exemple, with some decades of dedication "improve" a grassland to farmland; or cut down woods; or rise woods; or grown the woods to a forest.

Will we be able to change at least some productions? In eu4 there are events, finding coal, missions etc. In vic3 we just need to build industries where there was only farms. I would love to have some control over those farms and favor what i need at the moment: horses, livestock, legumes etc. Of course we cant chose where we dig metals, but plants and animals are under human interference. 500 years ago there was no horse in the Americas, today they run in all countries, most brazilians belive that most of our fruits are native and wild hippos became a problem in Colombia. please please please.

Also, are elephants among the goods in India or Africa? I bet I am not the only player who uses a retinue of elephants in northern Europe called The Mammoths (ty Imperator Rome <3)!
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
We had 3 options for the cultures:
1. Just go with Dutch, based on the language.
2. Portray the 4 regional variants/dialects of Middle Dutch (Flemish, Brabantic, Hollandic, Limburgic), plus Dutch Low Saxon.
3. Opting for an intermediate level, grouping Flemish, Brabantic, and Limburgic under Flemish, and Hollandic and Dutch Low Saxon groups under Dutch (as they also had a really close relationship). This is the one we decided to go to, for the moment.

We also discussed internally Overijssel and the Dutch Low Saxon region; as we have to review a bit the German cultures, it may change depending on that. And, in any case, we make this new series precisely to gather feedback, so we'll be reading opinions on this topic in the next few days. :)
I hope that you go for the 4 variants and apply the same principle for all cultures.
In the time frame regionnalism and local culture had stronger identity so it would make sense.

Maybe sub-culture group could be added, for this the dutch sub-culture group would be an exemple but the bavarian one and the rhenish one could also be exemples of the germanic group. It could demonstrate the similarities between cultures without erasing them, flemish should be easier to accept and integrate than prussian, and they should be more content to be under a hollandic king.

Also it would had an interresting gameplay to unify the sub-culture group of your realm in the late game, to crack down any eventual separatism when nationalism comes around.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
Thank you all for showing Zeeland some love ❤️. However, I was a bit disappointed to see Walcheren and Zuid-Beveland portrayed as connected islands. This only became the case after the construction of a dam in 1871 and subsequent land reclamation efforts post-World War II. The fact that they were separate islands played a significant role in their history, with places like Vlissingen, Veere, and Middelburg benefiting from their strategic positions on the island of walcheren and their access to the estuary of the Scheldt River, serving as a gateway to Antwerp. This strategic importance led to conflicts during World War II and the Napoleonic Wars.

Moreover, these islands have a rich cultural heritage, with historic towns like Veere serving as vital centres of trade and commerce during the Dutch Golden Age. The maritime prowess of these regions was integral to the rise of the Dutch East India Company and the exploration of new trade routes.
 
  • 4Like
Reactions:
Some of these have already been mentioned by others, and then I haven't read half of those to be honest, but here are some notes that I find as a Dutchman with interest in history:

Provinces:
* This map mode is not very clear in this way. It is okay in the Netherlands, but further east it is hard to see what is in which province. Given that the provinces are the main thing on this map, make the province boundaries thick and clear, and the national boundaries thin - the opposite from what they are now.

Locations:
* The name 'Leeuwerden' is incorrect, it should be 'Leeuwarden' (Dutch) or 'Ljouwerd' (Frisian)
* Makkum would better be Stavoren, Hindeloopen or Sneek
* Coevorden is not in the Coevorden region, but in the Emmen region. Best to rename Emmen to Coevorden, and Coevorden to Meppel or Ruinen. Another possibility could be to merge these two regions into one, given that Drenthe is not a very important region anyhow - there are other locations that deserve a split more than those two (Tiel out of Nijmegen, Amersfoort out of Utrecht, Bergen op Zoom out of Breda)
* As someone else noticed, merging Apeldoorn into Arnhem while splitting off Tiel from Nijmegen would probably give a better presentation of Gelderland
* And indeed, splitting Utrecht might be a good idea - it is weird to have one location for the most important part of the Utrecht bishopry, and 3 for Drenthe
* Dordrecht is not in the shown Dordrecht region, but in the Rotterdam region. My proposal would be to merge Dordrecht into Gouda, and rename it Schoonhoven, and split Rotterdam into Rotterdam and Dordrecht

Cultures:
* As said before, the east of the Netherlands is Low Saxon rather than Dutch, and the Dutch-Flemish split did not really exist in this way. My proposal for an overhaul of the culture map mode would be:
** move all of Drenthe and Overijssel, most of Guelderland and the Dutch presence int the Ommelanden (going by your province map) from Dutch to Low Saxon
** move Kemptenland, North Brbant, South Brabant and West Limburg from Flemish to Dutch
** move East Limburg from Flemish to Rhenisch
* The Dutch presence in what is here called the Harlingen location is from later date (around 1500)
 
  • 9Like
Reactions:
Thank you for the great maps!

Made my day with the inclusion of my little hometown as a location :)

So I have two questions:
Why is Bonn part of Berg? After the loss of Cologne in 1288 Bonn became the defacto capital of Kurköln. The city was never part of the realm of the count of Berg.
Which leads to the second question. Will the city of cologne be part of Kurköln (the realm of the archbishop and elector count) as it was in EUIV or will Cologne be a free Reichsstadt, like it was historically.
 
Last edited:
  • 2Like
Reactions:
help us ensure the desired quality. So we would appreciate getting specific suggestions backed by these types of sources, as others (let’s say, a Wikipedia map or YouTube video with no references) may not be reliable enough
well i did that for north africa in Vic3 especially for morocco who did have a territorial expansion south to western sahara and other regions back then and i provided documents , historical witnesses from big figures such as voltaires and others , i did provide stamps for regions like tindouf that had a moroccan stamp on it , i did explain documented historical customs such as how the imams preach on the name of sultans of morocco in friday's big prayers .i provided original maps from 19th century but you still kept morocco with 1956 borders.

i even provided a document that show the yearly custom where the chieftans reconfirm the sultan's souvereignty over them . finally i explained the system used by the arab desert tribes south that is similar to ck3 clan system where a central government do allow the nomads and peoples from useless areas like full deserts to enjoy a bit of autonomy and nomadic life style under condition they confirm yearly the sultan's souvereinty and allow the troops to garison and build whatever they want cities or forts or anything.
but i was opposed , peoples joked , and the only counter claim i got was from peoples who use the spanish claim that the sahara was empty and free for the taking but this is just so false as we know and part of how colonial nations used to take territory of others .
but thats not my point , my point is that you butchered whole north africa and middle east and you ignored all our wall texts with documents and proofs to fix it and i wasnt the only one in fact for vic3 so many peoples did like me but nothing was done.
so based on this i do feel reluctant to waste hours on a post just to be met with total silence from your sides and lot of noises from peoples who just troll instead of giving counter arguments here
 
  • 2Like
Reactions:
I think it would be better to split up the trade nodes in the region, as one big region could cause massive inbalances if real world development levels are respected. Also, it would make more sense to have the trade node be controlled by the city of Bruges first and then add an event like the silting of the Zwin river to transfer the trade capital to Antwerp.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
I think it would be better to split up the trade nodes in the region, as one big region could cause massive inbalances if real world development levels are respected. Also, it would make more sense to have the trade node be controlled by the city of Bruges first and then add an event like the silting of the Zwin river to transfer the trade capital to Antwerp.
Trade nodes don't exist anymore. See the Tinto Talks by Johan...
 
This is not specifically about Low Countries, but it's been bugging me for two days now. Could you please make wheat some shade of yellow rather than green? Pretty please?
 
Last edited:
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:
Everything looks great, especially the addition of Picard and even if I feel there should be a bit more mixed provinces in the hainaut area its fine.

A few nitpicks :

- No Iron or Coal in Wallonia seems weird considering the importance of walloon metallurgy in the time period and later
- The small patches of continental climate feel weird, I would have thought it would get closer to the sea
- woods in Wallonia should extend further west and north
- Separating dutch/flemish in four cultures as suggested would make it more consistent with the picard/Walloon split and better the highlight the quite big differences between flanders and brabant.
- Separating the northern part of Mons into a new location of picard culture named "Ath" would be nice, and make the province stand a bit less.

Oh and contrary to what others have said using Brussels is fine since it matches the local french pronounciation and is historically accurate regarding to the brabantian dialect.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:
imo provices should be flexible and have some sort of system similar to the de jure system in CK3 where if a tag owns some but not all locations in a province then either the province that those locations are a part of should get smaller or they should become a part of the surrounding provinces.

This is under the assumption that there are bonuses from owning all of the locations within a province but it allows players to change the map to benefit them. this obviously wouldnt be as poweful as it is in CK3 as there are no internal vassals as there are in CK3 that could change the borders of provinces you already own all of, and this shouldnt be a thing regardless since it just makes a mess inside your country and offers no real benefit.

locations should also remember which province they were a part of originally and if a tag owns that location and its original provice then it should drift back to its original setup, this could also be a game rule so players can choose if they want any locational drift changes made to provinces to be permanent.
 
As a Dutchy im very excited for these maps. I always hoped that we could have more provinces in the lowlands, so im very happy! I still have some questions about certain decisions that are made.
  1. Why is there no representation of the lakes in the Holland area, especially Haarlemmermeer? This lake existed for a long time until 1848 when it was drained. Considering the historical significance, particularly in the cooperation with the region of Leiden, it seems logical to incorporate this lake. It played a crucial role in elevating Leiden's prominence by facilitating overwater trade with Haarlem, Amsterdam, and even providing access to North Sea trade routes. Without this lake, Leiden and Haarlem would have been isolated from the sea, limiting their trading capacities."
  2. While I appreciate the addition of more provinces in the lowlands, I'm curious about the decision to incorporate 'Emmen' as a location. Emmen lost its prominence significantly after the battle of Ane in 1227 and the subsequent burning down of the settlement by Wilbrand von Oldenburg in 1229. Following these events, Emmen's importance declined, and the region became increasingly influenced by the city of Coevorden. It would be more logical to integrate Emmen into Coevorden. Additionally, I suggest separating the city of Kampen from the Zwolle location. Kampen held far more prominence and importance in the region compared to Emmen. While Zwolle exerted a certain influence on this coastal city, Kampen retained a distinct individuality, as it, unlike Zwolle, did not sign any agreements with the Hanze. Another possibility in the Emmen area could involve incorporating the location of Bentheim. As a resident of Groningen, I would appreciate representation for this region, as our beloved Martinitoren was constructed using stones from Bentheim. Bentheim was renowned for its sandstone, often referred to as 'Bentheimer gold,' making it a significantly influential region in comparison.
  3. This is just a question, because I’m curious. Is it possible to release the city of Groningen and/or the Ommelanden as separate entities?
 
Last edited:
  • 6Like
Reactions: