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Tinto Maps #1 - 10th of May 2024

Hello everybody, and welcome to the first post of Tinto Maps! This is a new weekly series that we will be running about the top-secret game Project Caesar.

Let me introduce myself before I continue, as some of you may get to know me from the development of the latest EUIV DLCs, but I might not be as well-known to everyone as Johan. I’m Pavía, the Content Design Lead at Paradox Tinto, which I joined in 2021. Before becoming a videogame developer, my background was as a Historian, which led me to work on a PhD. in Medieval History (fool me!), which I finished in 2020. Besides that, I’ve spent several thousands of hours of my life playing Paradox GSGs since I discovered and started playing Europa Universalis 20 years ago, in 2004.

What this new series will be about is quite straightforward: each week I will be sharing with you maps of a new different region, so you have an outlook of them and we are able to receive early feedback (because as you may already know from Johan’s Tinto Talks, there is still a lot of WIP stuff ongoing).

About this feedback, we’d like you to take into account a couple of things. The first is that we’ve worked really hard to gather the best sources of information available to craft the best possible map; we used GIS tools with several layers of historical map sources from academic works, geographical data, administrative data, etc., to help us ensure the desired quality. So we would appreciate getting specific suggestions backed by these types of sources, as others (let’s say, a Wikipedia map or YouTube video with no references) may not be reliable enough. The second thing to comment on is that sometimes a certain decision we made was an interpretation over an unclear source, while sometimes we have just plainly made some errors when crafting the map (which on a 30,000 location map is a normal thing, I guess). I’ll let you know when any of these happen, and I’m also going to ask for your understanding when an error or bug is found and confirmed as such.

With those forewords said, let’s start with today’s region: the Low Countries! This is what the political map looks like:

Countries.png

The regional situation in 1337. The counties of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeeland are ruled by William of Avesnes, who is married to Joanna, daughter of Duke John III of Brabant. Another John, the Duke of Luxembourg, might be the strongest power, as he is also the King of Bohemia. The County of Flanders is the wealthiest country in the region, controlling such important cities as Brugge and Ghent. Up in the north, we have other interesting countries, such as the Bishopric of Utrecht or the Republic of Frisia (you might notice that we're using a dynamic custom country name for them, 'Frisian Freedom').

And here we have the locations:

Locations.png

We had a fun bug for some time - Antwerpen didn’t have any pixels connected to the sea, which we found because we couldn’t build any type of port building there. There’s a happy ending, as the bug has already been corrected, and Antwerpen can finally have a proper port!

Provinces:

Provinces.jpg


Terrain (Climate, Topography, and Vegetation):

Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

We are aware that the Netherlands looked differently in the 14th century, as several land reclamations took place during the Late Medieval and Early Modern periods, but we are using a 20th-century version of the map for the sake of consistency. Most of the regions throughout the world would look quite different from nowadays, and documenting those changes (especially the coastline shapes) would be a non-trivial problem to resolve. As a side note, we already removed Flevoland from it, and have already identified some other modern ones that slipped through and we'll eventually remove them, as well.

Cultures:

Cultures.png

The stripes mean that there are pops of different culture inhabiting in those location. Also, the German and French cultures are WIP, we’ll show you a proper version on later Tinto Maps.

Religions:

Religions.png

Not many religions here yet, although there will be interesting religious stuff happening eventually…

Raw Goods:

Goods.png

Goods get regularly swapped around here and there to have a balance between geographical and historical accuracy, and gameplay purposes. So take this as the far-from-final current version of them.

And an additional map for this week:

Markets.png

We reinstated a Low Countries market centered on Antwerpen, after doing some balance tweaks that made it more viable.

And these are the maps for today! I hope that you have a nice weekend, and next Friday, we will travel down south, to Iberia!
 

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Oh also regarding the Bruges/Antwerp question, I want to mention that Flanders boycotted the import of English cloth (which was becoming more important, because England was starting to export less wool and make more cloth itself) in 1359 and due to this, many German traders who were trading in London stopped in Brabant on the way, rather than Bruges.
It's documented that at the start of the 15th century, 35% of Cologne merchants who were trading with London were visiting Antwerp, while in the second half of the century it was 75%.

So while Bruges losing its port was the coup de grâce, it looks like Flemish trading policy had already negatively affected their importance compared to Brabant.
Cologne-Antwerp became a very important trade route in the 15th century, but that's a bit too late for the start of the game...
 
Why is Frisia called 'Frisian Freedom'?
Look it up, it's pretty interesting but I can't post a link here
Wikipedia summary: Frisian freedom (West Frisian: Fryske frijheid; Dutch: Friese vrijheid; German: Friesische Freiheit) was the absence of feudalism and serfdom in Frisia, the area that was originally inhabited by the Frisians. Historical Frisia included the modern provinces of Friesland and Groningen, and the area of West Friesland, in the Netherlands, and East Friesland in Germany. During the period of Frisian freedom the area did not have a sovereign lord who owned and administered the land. The freedom of the Frisians developed in the context of ongoing disputes over the rights of local nobility.
 
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Very nice. Frisian Freedom is honestly a weird sounding name for the country itself, though. It sounds more like a cultural ethos or national idea. Using an adjective to modify Frisia like "Free Frisia" sounds a bit better, but I think there still could be a better dynamic name.
 
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In what ways is the graphical quality of the map inferior in comparison to Imperator: Rome? Could you elaborate? Just curious.



I was going to also mention this as well. I really wish provinces in this upcoming game would produce more than one type of raw material, like in Victoria 2/3. But like you said, it would probably create many game design complications. Unfortunate.
It's hard to describe aesthetics but the map seems to run with lower graphical quality.

Someone said in the comment that there might be secondary resources that appear if you build mine or some other building to create additional raw resources. Not all hope is lost :)
 
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My English vocab might be limited, but what is those Sturdy Grains in Utrecht? How is it different from wheat?
Also I'm not sure about the total number of goods, but I think a lot of them are sharing the same white color like wool, pearl, gems, marble, and salt? Is it possible to differentiate them using strips or something? Or maybe we have a map mode that can select and highlight one particular good like what we have in EU4?
 
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We're using the Köppen climate classification worldwide, to have consistent climates.
Köppen is better than anything any strategy game has done, but may I suggest you consider using Köppen-Trewartha? The main downside of Köppen is that it over generalizes some regions, such as making both Bellingham and Santa Barbara Csb. Trewartha breaks up the continental zones into more accurate, but still manageable climate zones. You can read more about it here.
 
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Köppen is better than anything any strategy game has done, but may I suggest you consider using Köppen-Trewartha? The main downside of Köppen is that it over generalizes some regions, such as making both Bellingham and Santa Barbara Csb. Trewartha breaks up the continental zones into more accurate, but still manageable climate zones. You can read more about it here.
Trewartha really is hardly better than Koppen and generalizes things that Koppen doesnt, for example comparing Tennesse to coastal Oregon.

At the end of the day its not a big deal in a game like this, if its oceanic or mediterranean winters dont cause many issues for troops, if it's continental it does and Trewartha and Koppen both represent that winter isotherm similarly.
 
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I suppose I would prefer for the climates to be more granular. The Köppen system can easily support doing so.

After all, Norilsk and Boston certainly have very different climates, even though they are both "continental" and would be considered identical under the shown system. And indeed in the Köppen system, the former is Dfc (humid subarctic) and the latter is Dfa (hot-summer humid continental).

I'm assuming that "sparse" vegetation refers to steppe or shrubland type environments found in semi-arid regions? I think the difference between steppes and grassland is pretty important to represent, somehow.

It also might be nice for high mountains to be their own terrain type, the Himalayas are more of a barrier than the Urals (and I'm not sure if the difference can really just be represented by impassable locations).
 
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I suppose I would prefer for the climates to be more granular. The Köppen system can easily support doing so.

After all, Norilsk and Boston certainly have very different climates, even though they are both "continental" and would be considered identical under the shown system. And indeed in the Köppen system, the former is Dfc (humid subarctic) and the latter is Dfa (hot-summer humid continental).

I'm assuming that "sparse" vegetation refers to steppe or shrubland type environments found in semi-arid regions? I think the difference between steppes and grassland is pretty important to represent, somehow.
Johan list artic as climate, but I really doubt there is going to be many artic provinces.
I assume he mispoke and meant subartic there(mainly Dfc or Dwc and minimal Dfb or any E)

Basically I assume Norilsk would be artic
 
What an Amazing map, it looks so nice the details and the nice borders. Amazing! This really brings the Dutchman inside of me above. Cannot be more excited to play Friesland and conquer the entire Netherlands, since we all know the Frisians are the orginal Dutchman.

I do have some recommendations on the current dutch provinces, with some Historical background to back it up (Wikipedia links, real research).
Perhaps some are created due to balancing of the map.

1. Province of Groningen.
City of Groningen basically controlled the province, everything outside the city is called Ommelanden (I myself am from this region). These Ommelanden were divided in 4 regions. 1. Westerkwartier, 2. Hunsingo, 3. Fivelingo, 4. Oldambt (which came in the 15th century).

On the map, I see that the city of Groningen together with Westerkwartier and Hunsingo form "Groningen".
Fivelingo and 1/2 of Oldambt form Appingedam.
Before the city of Groningen got this power status over the entire province, it had some cities wars with Appingedam, which it won.

Wedde is it own region (official name for this region is "Westerwolde"), which makes sense. Before Westerwolde became officially Dutch it had close ties with the Bishop Münster and was regarded more Saxon cultured than Frisian cultured, the region itself spoke a Saxon dialect until the 16th. The name of the region implies that is on the West side of the Bishop Münster, while from Groningen its perspective it East.
This region came into Dutch hands in 1530 due to the duke of Gelre who concequered it and was later on conquered by Karel the V.

Changes I would propose for this province are for the start date 1337:
1. Make the Culture of wedde Saxon (perhaps with Frisian influence).
2. Make Wedde landlocked, and give Appingedam the entire coastal region on the east.

2. Province of Drenthe (top 3 regions in Oversticht).
1. Coevorden
and Emmen are direct neighbours (city centers are 20 km apart). For historical reasons I would like to rename Emmen to Coevorden since the growth of Emmen started in the 20th century, whilst Coevorden was a fully fortified city back then.
2. Instead of Coevorden I would suggest Meppel, which has been the biggest place in South-West of Drenthe.

3. Province of Friesland.
Rename Makkum to Sneek, since that is an official Frisian city in that specific region, and Makkum isnt.

4. Province of Gelre.
This province was divided in four "Kwartieren" (in english Quarters). These were 1. Arnhem, 2. Zutphen, 3. Nijmegen en 4 Roermond. If you ever visit Arnhem, the old city hall reference the names on a plaque.
The two that trigger me here are: 1. The location of Arnhem which border Utrecht, while in real life it borders Kleef. 2. The place names Apeldoorn and Doetichem in general since both grew in the 19th century.

Changes I would like to see here are:
1. Doetichem and Zutphen becoming 1, since this entire region belonged to the "kwartier of Zutphen". West part of Doetichem going to Arnhem.
2. Combine Apeldoorn and the West part of Doetichem and call it Arnhem. This region was called the "kwartier of Veluwe (Arnhem). Basically giving Arnhem control over the entire Veluwe Forest. Perhaps also adjust the grassland into Woodland there.
3. Rename Arnhem to Wageningen. Arnhem doesnt border Utrecht.

4. Province of Utrecht:
Why no Amersfoort, which is in CK3?

5. Province of Noord-Holland
Why no Haarlem, which is in CK3? Haarlem in the middle ages was bigger and more important than the city of Amsterdam, since the 80 years war the city of Amsterdam grew bigger than Haarlem.

6. Province of Dutch-Limburg
Rename Weert to Roermond, since this is bigger city and this city borders Belgium and not Germany.
Rename Roermond to Heinsberg (it clearly visible that Roermond is in the current German lands.

6. Bad-Bentheim?

View attachment 1130991
Really good post! You forgot to change Makkum to Sneek on your map :). I have three things to add: 1. The map seems to use polders that were created way after the start date (wieringermeer polder for example). 2. Leeuwarden is awkwardly placed; irl the city is located approximately where the locations of Harlingen, Dokkum and Leeuwarden meet om this map. Either shuffle the borders a bit or create a new location for Leeuwarden and rename the south-east 3. Groningen didn't border the north sea at this point. I would cut off the northern parts and make that into a new location.
 
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We are aware that the Netherlands looked differently in the 14th century, as several land reclamations took place during the Late Medieval and Early Modern periods, but we are using a 20th-century version of the map for the sake of consistency.

This comment especially highlights the value of being able to change the geographical landscape during the course of a game - you just said it was something that DID occur during the time period of the game. I suspect it would be a lot of work to do, but if you can, please design the game now so that it might be something you can implement in a later DLC.
 
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I would really love to see an independent city of cologne. It was de facto independent from the electorate of cologne since 1288 and became a free city later.

This is the one thing I was going to mention as well. A lot of the HRE Prince-Bishoprics lost control of the actual city they were named after. Basel is another good example of this happening.

(Speaking of Prince-Bishoprics, I can't wait for the British Isles map, as England was very noticeably missing the County Palatine of Durham on previous maps. The County Palatine of Durham was more or less the only entity within England itself that was on the level of the semi-independent vassals on the continent).
 
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I'm glad that you've decided to start doing these. I'm reading in advance about the situation of the Carpathian space in the mid-14th century and I'm getting all kinds of headaches as I have to dig deep for information, while also encountering a lack of consensus over chronological details. I think I'm getting the large picture however and I'll be able to offer some proper feedback when it's my turn.

I dread to think of the arguments that area, and surrounding areas, are going to cause. It was bad back even as far as the EU2 beta - who knows how much arguing will happen with this granularity.
 
Hopefully this is a question that isn't [REDACTED] to answer at this point, but how big is the entire world map on a pixel scale? For example, the EUIV map is 5632 x 1048 and the province map for the Netherlands looks like this:

1715394992782.png


Whereas the Locations map for Project Caesar looks like this:

Locations.png


I don't have HOI4 installed nor own Vic3 to be able to reference their province maps for pixel size, but obviously when compared with the EUIV map, beyond the greater density of locations, it's also extremely obvious that the PC map is more detailed when comparing the coastlines and islands (I am zoomed in far enough on the EUIV map that the islands that are there are just 2-3 square pixels wide), which means that the pixel size of this map has to be a lot larger to be able to account for the level of detail even if the overall way the map is produced (as square pixels) is the same as most of the other PDX titles.

Follow-up question, but is this map size currently fixed to whatever size it is or is it still being worked with and adjusted to where it could potentially be made larger to allow for even more granularity and detail? I imagine it would be moddable to use an increased-size map like most other PDX games, but specifically referring to the map above that is being worked on to ship with the game itself.
 
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For me as a non native English speaker, it was highly confusing. I don't think everyone is familiar with this meaning of the word "game". Maybe it better to refer as hunting trophies, hunting or wild products?

It doesn't mean just plain hunting though, there are specific types of animals and products included in this term, rather than the entire spectrum the word hunting implies

It might unfortunately be confusing those unfamiliar with the term, but game is the proper term in English. Think of vocabulary expansion as another learning experience beyond history and geography that Paradox is providing!
 
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Hello everybody, and welcome to the first post of Tinto Maps! This is a new weekly series that we will be running about the top-secret game Project Caesar.

Let me introduce myself before I continue, as some of you may get to know me from the development of the latest EUIV DLCs, but I might not be as well-known to everyone as Johan. I’m Pavía, the Content Design Lead at Paradox Tinto, which I joined in 2021. Before becoming a videogame developer, my background was as a Historian, which led me to work on a PhD. in Medieval History (fool me!), which I finished in 2020. Besides that, I’ve spent several thousands of hours of my life playing Paradox GSGs since I discovered and started playing Europa Universalis 20 years ago, in 2004.

What this new series will be about is quite straightforward: each week I will be sharing with you maps of a new different region, so you have an outlook of them and we are able to receive early feedback (because as you may already know from Johan’s Tinto Talks, there is still a lot of WIP stuff ongoing).

About this feedback, we’d like you to take into account a couple of things. The first is that we’ve worked really hard to gather the best sources of information available to craft the best possible map; we used GIS tools with several layers of historical map sources from academic works, geographical data, administrative data, etc., to help us ensure the desired quality. So we would appreciate getting specific suggestions backed by these types of sources, as others (let’s say, a Wikipedia map or YouTube video with no references) may not be reliable enough. The second thing to comment on is that sometimes a certain decision we made was an interpretation over an unclear source, while sometimes we have just plainly made some errors when crafting the map (which on a 30,000 location map is a normal thing, I guess). I’ll let you know when any of these happen, and I’m also going to ask for your understanding when an error or bug is found and confirmed as such.

With those forewords said, let’s start with today’s region: the Low Countries! This is what the political map looks like:

View attachment 1130588
The regional situation in 1337. The counties of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeeland are ruled by William of Avesnes, who is married to Joanna, daughter of Duke John III of Brabant. Another John, the Duke of Luxembourg, might be the strongest power, as he is also the King of Bohemia. The County of Flanders is the wealthiest country in the region, controlling such important cities as Brugge and Ghent. Up in the north, we have other interesting countries, such as the Bishopric of Utrecht or the Republic of Frisia (you might notice that we're using a dynamic custom country name for them, 'Frisian Freedom').

And here we have the locations:

View attachment 1130589
We had a fun bug for some time - Antwerpen didn’t have any pixels connected to the sea, which we found because we couldn’t build any type of port building there. There’s a happy ending, as the bug has already been corrected, and Antwerpen can finally have a proper port!

Provinces:

View attachment 1130889

Terrain (Climate, Topography, and Vegetation):

View attachment 1130626
View attachment 1130627
View attachment 1130628
We are aware that the Netherlands looked differently in the 14th century, as several land reclamations took place during the Late Medieval and Early Modern periods, but we are using a 20th-century version of the map for the sake of consistency. Most of the regions throughout the world would look quite different from nowadays, and documenting those changes (especially the coastline shapes) would be a non-trivial problem to resolve. As a side note, we already removed Flevoland from it, and have already identified some other modern ones that slipped through and we'll eventually remove them, as well.

Cultures:

View attachment 1130590
The stripes mean that there are pops of different culture inhabiting in those location. Also, the German and French cultures are WIP, we’ll show you a proper version on later Tinto Maps.

Religions:

View attachment 1130591
Not many religions here yet, although there will be interesting religious stuff happening eventually…

Raw Goods:

View attachment 1130592
Goods get regularly swapped around here and there to have a balance between geographical and historical accuracy, and gameplay purposes. So take this as the far-from-final current version of them.

And an additional map for this week:

View attachment 1130593
We reinstated a Low Countries market centered on Antwerpen, after doing some balance tweaks that made it more viable.

And these are the maps for today! I hope that you have a nice weekend, and next Friday, we will travel down south, to Iberia!
The topography map is a little overwhelming. Maybe cut down on the amount of labels for each type of topography?
 
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Here is my suggestion for vegetation:
hEbzGWu.png

The strip of farmland north of the Meuse is fertile loess soil. It extends into France to the west and towards the Cologne Bay in the east. The Netherlands do have some woods, so I think everything being grassland would be pretty boring.
The cities of Namur and Liège on the Meuse are in that loess corridor as well, but it looks like their locations extend entirely south of the cities, so they don't really have much of the fertile soil.

Sources used: Loess soil map and forest maps that you can google easily, like the one in this Belgian document. As always, it's impossible to have a perfectly accurate map of forest cover when the game spans almost 500 years anyway, so using modern maps isn't a big deal, especially since there are no contemporary sources for maps like this. (Although it would always be better to research the state of forests at the time, like I did for Germany)

Edit: As discussed after this post, the southern Netherlands were just heaths throughout most of the game's timespan. Cultivated, but just grassland without significant forest cover. I updated the map, but I left in Arnhem as woods, the forest there is called Veluwe.
Second Edit: Removed Veluwe woods as well, since the area was just heath at the time.
 
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