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Tinto Maps #1 - 10th of May 2024

Hello everybody, and welcome to the first post of Tinto Maps! This is a new weekly series that we will be running about the top-secret game Project Caesar.

Let me introduce myself before I continue, as some of you may get to know me from the development of the latest EUIV DLCs, but I might not be as well-known to everyone as Johan. I’m Pavía, the Content Design Lead at Paradox Tinto, which I joined in 2021. Before becoming a videogame developer, my background was as a Historian, which led me to work on a PhD. in Medieval History (fool me!), which I finished in 2020. Besides that, I’ve spent several thousands of hours of my life playing Paradox GSGs since I discovered and started playing Europa Universalis 20 years ago, in 2004.

What this new series will be about is quite straightforward: each week I will be sharing with you maps of a new different region, so you have an outlook of them and we are able to receive early feedback (because as you may already know from Johan’s Tinto Talks, there is still a lot of WIP stuff ongoing).

About this feedback, we’d like you to take into account a couple of things. The first is that we’ve worked really hard to gather the best sources of information available to craft the best possible map; we used GIS tools with several layers of historical map sources from academic works, geographical data, administrative data, etc., to help us ensure the desired quality. So we would appreciate getting specific suggestions backed by these types of sources, as others (let’s say, a Wikipedia map or YouTube video with no references) may not be reliable enough. The second thing to comment on is that sometimes a certain decision we made was an interpretation over an unclear source, while sometimes we have just plainly made some errors when crafting the map (which on a 30,000 location map is a normal thing, I guess). I’ll let you know when any of these happen, and I’m also going to ask for your understanding when an error or bug is found and confirmed as such.

With those forewords said, let’s start with today’s region: the Low Countries! This is what the political map looks like:

Countries.png

The regional situation in 1337. The counties of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeeland are ruled by William of Avesnes, who is married to Joanna, daughter of Duke John III of Brabant. Another John, the Duke of Luxembourg, might be the strongest power, as he is also the King of Bohemia. The County of Flanders is the wealthiest country in the region, controlling such important cities as Brugge and Ghent. Up in the north, we have other interesting countries, such as the Bishopric of Utrecht or the Republic of Frisia (you might notice that we're using a dynamic custom country name for them, 'Frisian Freedom').

And here we have the locations:

Locations.png

We had a fun bug for some time - Antwerpen didn’t have any pixels connected to the sea, which we found because we couldn’t build any type of port building there. There’s a happy ending, as the bug has already been corrected, and Antwerpen can finally have a proper port!

Provinces:

Provinces.jpg


Terrain (Climate, Topography, and Vegetation):

Climate.jpg

Topography.jpg

Vegetation.jpg

We are aware that the Netherlands looked differently in the 14th century, as several land reclamations took place during the Late Medieval and Early Modern periods, but we are using a 20th-century version of the map for the sake of consistency. Most of the regions throughout the world would look quite different from nowadays, and documenting those changes (especially the coastline shapes) would be a non-trivial problem to resolve. As a side note, we already removed Flevoland from it, and have already identified some other modern ones that slipped through and we'll eventually remove them, as well.

Cultures:

Cultures.png

The stripes mean that there are pops of different culture inhabiting in those location. Also, the German and French cultures are WIP, we’ll show you a proper version on later Tinto Maps.

Religions:

Religions.png

Not many religions here yet, although there will be interesting religious stuff happening eventually…

Raw Goods:

Goods.png

Goods get regularly swapped around here and there to have a balance between geographical and historical accuracy, and gameplay purposes. So take this as the far-from-final current version of them.

And an additional map for this week:

Markets.png

We reinstated a Low Countries market centered on Antwerpen, after doing some balance tweaks that made it more viable.

And these are the maps for today! I hope that you have a nice weekend, and next Friday, we will travel down south, to Iberia!
 

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I have an alternative idea to Levies:
So this isn't about the current post but the previous one (not sure if you still read comments on old ones so wanted to post here). Basically I'm not super happy with the idea that levies cannot be raised before declaring a war. I think it should be allowed cause otherwise larger countries e.g. Russia will always be at a disadvantage even if they are the ones declaring the war. If you're worried a country will snowball in the conflict just because they raised levies before war declaration, perhaps a good alternative would be "prepare for war against ..." button on the war declaration screen. Basically, you can have spy networks in various countries (separate from diplomats), if Sweden wants to start a war and prepare their army ahead of time they click e.g. "prepare for war against Denmark", then they will be able to raise their levies and declare war on said country within set time frame and Denmark will have a spy network whose efficiency will give them a chance to discover the fact a foreign power is preparing to invade them, if they discover the plot then great, they can also raise their levies and prepare, but if they don't then it's kinda their fault anyway for not efficiently keeping tabs on their neighbors.
There will of course be standard war declaration which will work the same way as it normally did and levies will have to be raised post declaration.
Anyway I think it's a reasonable solution and would be a great addition also offering an extra layer of diplomatic dynamics.
 
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Querido @Pavía, is it possible to make a distinction between the name of the location and the name of the "main holding" in the territory? To give a couple of examples relative to the next region on the map: El Bierzo / Ponferrada, Sobrarbe / Aínsa. I imagine it will not be possible for both to appear in the game, but I ask just in case. Thank you very much!
Johan confirmed the EUIV system of provinces having a second localization for the main city won't be in the game.
 
Will you simulate things like Sri Lanka loosing its land bridge in 1480? It doesn't need to be represented on the map, but to use EU4 mechanics, you could have a strait crossing that gets removed around the historical time frame.
For like the third time, the land bridge was never wide enough to be a "strait crossing." During the Chola invasion of Anuradhapura (according to a commemorative plate) the Chola army crossed the strait "by ship." A specific comparison is indeed drawn to the Ramayana, but the fact that they specify it is by ship (and it is thus distinguished from the story in that sense) leads me to believe that it was impossible to have a strait crossing there. Sure, individual people might be able to cross, but an army, with horses, elephants, and a baggage train? Impossible. It should be an impassable sea tile, because it is impossible for a large ship to pass through - it is only a meter deep at points. That's it. For the whole game. You can have the cyclone happen if you want, but it is not going to change anything with regards to the "strait crossing" itself.

I know you probably didn't specifically mean this particular example, but it is irksome to see all the same. Just because there is a land bridge there (and because some epic from thousands of years ago mentions it was crossed - even though, you know, there is nothing in the original version to suggest that "Lanka" is specifically Sri Lanka) does not mean an army could feasibly cross it - which is why no one did. Other than a bunch of monkeys and bears.
 
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Will we be able to change terrain types during the game?

Drain marshes, Deforest (Forrest -> Woods -> Grassland) or develop Farmlands?

(Under the right conditions of course)
 
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My English vocab might be limited, but what is those Sturdy Grains in Utrecht? How is it different from wheat?
Also I'm not sure about the total number of goods, but I think a lot of them are sharing the same white color like wool, pearl, gems, marble, and salt? Is it possible to differentiate them using strips or something? Or maybe we have a map mode that can select and highlight one particular good like what we have in EU4?
I believe it should be incredibly similar to Imperator, which has a mechanic like the one you are asking for.
 
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For some reason Limbourg and Mastricht are in the Liege province? Unless I'm reading the map wrong. But Limbourg/Mastricht should be in East or West Limbourg province, no? Limbourg wouldn't be grouped with Liege until the 19th century when Dutch monarchs brought back the duchy. Besides, presently speaking the Dutch Limbourg of today actually encompasses the genuine confines of Limbourg whereas Belgian Limbourg is ahistorical and relies on the 19th century confines.
 
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We had 3 options for the cultures:
1. Just go with Dutch, based on the language.
2. Portray the 4 regional variants/dialects of Middle Dutch (Flemish, Brabantic, Hollandic, Limburgic), plus Dutch Low Saxon.
3. Opting for an intermediate level, grouping Flemish, Brabantic, and Limburgic under Flemish, and Hollandic and Dutch Low Saxon groups under Dutch (as they also had a really close relationship). This is the one we decided to go to, for the moment.

We also discussed internally Overijssel and the Dutch Low Saxon region; as we have to review a bit the German cultures, it may change depending on that. And, in any case, we make this new series precisely to gather feedback, so we'll be reading opinions on this topic in the next few days. :)

I'd like to see the regional variants/dialects of Middle Dutch added simply because the idea of a unified Dutch culture was something that came about from the 80 Years War. It'd add some nice granularity and inter-cultural rivalry plus depending how culture works in the game you'd have to spend significant efforts to actualize formulize a national identity.
 
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Hello everybody, and welcome to the first post of Tinto Maps! This is a new weekly series that we will be running about the top-secret game Project Caesar.

Let me introduce myself before I continue, as some of you may get to know me from the development of the latest EUIV DLCs, but I might not be as well-known to everyone as Johan. I’m Pavía, the Content Design Lead at Paradox Tinto, which I joined in 2021. Before becoming a videogame developer, my background was as a Historian, which led me to work on a PhD. in Medieval History (fool me!), which I finished in 2020. Besides that, I’ve spent several thousands of hours of my life playing Paradox GSGs since I discovered and started playing Europa Universalis 20 years ago, in 2004.

What this new series will be about is quite straightforward: each week I will be sharing with you maps of a new different region, so you have an outlook of them and we are able to receive early feedback (because as you may already know from Johan’s Tinto Talks, there is still a lot of WIP stuff ongoing).

About this feedback, we’d like you to take into account a couple of things. The first is that we’ve worked really hard to gather the best sources of information available to craft the best possible map; we used GIS tools with several layers of historical map sources from academic works, geographical data, administrative data, etc., to help us ensure the desired quality. So we would appreciate getting specific suggestions backed by these types of sources, as others (let’s say, a Wikipedia map or YouTube video with no references) may not be reliable enough. The second thing to comment on is that sometimes a certain decision we made was an interpretation over an unclear source, while sometimes we have just plainly made some errors when crafting the map (which on a 30,000 location map is a normal thing, I guess). I’ll let you know when any of these happen, and I’m also going to ask for your understanding when an error or bug is found and confirmed as such.

With those forewords said, let’s start with today’s region: the Low Countries! This is what the political map looks like:

View attachment 1130588
The regional situation in 1337. The counties of Hainaut, Holland, and Zeeland are ruled by William of Avesnes, who is married to Joanna, daughter of Duke John III of Brabant. Another John, the Duke of Luxembourg, might be the strongest power, as he is also the King of Bohemia. The County of Flanders is the wealthiest country in the region, controlling such important cities as Brugge and Ghent. Up in the north, we have other interesting countries, such as the Bishopric of Utrecht or the Republic of Frisia (you might notice that we're using a dynamic custom country name for them, 'Frisian Freedom').

And here we have the locations:

View attachment 1130589
We had a fun bug for some time - Antwerpen didn’t have any pixels connected to the sea, which we found because we couldn’t build any type of port building there. There’s a happy ending, as the bug has already been corrected, and Antwerpen can finally have a proper port!

Provinces:

View attachment 1130889

Terrain (Climate, Topography, and Vegetation):

View attachment 1130626
View attachment 1130627
View attachment 1130628
We are aware that the Netherlands looked differently in the 14th century, as several land reclamations took place during the Late Medieval and Early Modern periods, but we are using a 20th-century version of the map for the sake of consistency. Most of the regions throughout the world would look quite different from nowadays, and documenting those changes (especially the coastline shapes) would be a non-trivial problem to resolve. As a side note, we already removed Flevoland from it, and have already identified some other modern ones that slipped through and we'll eventually remove them, as well.

Cultures:

View attachment 1130590
The stripes mean that there are pops of different culture inhabiting in those location. Also, the German and French cultures are WIP, we’ll show you a proper version on later Tinto Maps.

Religions:

View attachment 1130591
Not many religions here yet, although there will be interesting religious stuff happening eventually…

Raw Goods:

View attachment 1130592
Goods get regularly swapped around here and there to have a balance between geographical and historical accuracy, and gameplay purposes. So take this as the far-from-final current version of them.

And an additional map for this week:

View attachment 1130593
We reinstated a Low Countries market centered on Antwerpen, after doing some balance tweaks that made it more viable.

And these are the maps for today! I hope that you have a nice weekend, and next Friday, we will travel down south, to Iberia!
Hi, I wanted to ask if it was maybe better to split utrecht up to avoid having a large location, you could for example give parts of the east to the city of Amersfoort which is the second largest city in the province and was granted city rights in 1259 (137 years after utrecht). it would make the location seem fuller and more dense then it looks right now.
 
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For me as a non native English speaker it was highly confusing. I don't think everyone is familiar with this meaning of the word "game". Maybe it better to refer as hunting trophies, hunting or wild products?
No. "Hunting trophies" would connote stuffed heads, antlers, or pelts; things that would be displayed, not eaten. "Hunting" is an activity, not a good. "Wild Products" smacks of jargon or adspeak and could mean anything from spicy food to herbal remedies. "Wild Game" or simply "Game" is the correct way to refer to this trade good in English, whether or not you're familiar with it.
 
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I don't see chinaware anywere among trading goods, is it replaced with clay, thus giving chinese provinces some sort of modifier? I don't think that's a good solution.
The list Johan posted is a list of raw materials which are extracted through resource gathering operations, a.k.a. RGOs. Those are intrinsic to the locations. Stuff like chinaware would be a goods which is "refined" from one or more of the raw materials in the list Johan posted. We will likely have to construct a building which converts for example clay to chinaware, but unlike RGOs it will largely be up to the player/AI where to build buildings.
 
I really like all maps and all, but I'm worried about one thing. We can clearly see states that have only one 'location'. Something simmilar is taking place in Vic3 with states like Anhalt or Mecklemburg-Strelitz. But after you conquer 2 locations of the same province in Victoria they merge permanently - other party cant conquer only this one specific location. So here is my question: Are you able to acquire 'locations' through peace deals or the smallest you can go is provinces?

yes of course you can acquire single locations
 
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As a Dutchmen I'm very excited to see this!!! Amazing work! I'm from the Dutch province of Limburg and have 1 very strong opinion on the naming... From south to north:
Maastricht is an excellent choice, it's the most important city in that region, historically and today. After that it's 'Weert' and 'Venlo'. Venlo is also a great choice, don't change that!! It's 'Weert' that I find weird (pun intended). 'Weert' is in the region, but it would be more logical to name that 'Roermond'. It's thé most important Dutch city in that specified region. You named the lands east of Roermond 'Roermond', I don't know why. 'Heinsberg' would be a better fit. The main reason to rename 'Weert' to 'Roermond' would be the important strategic placement of the city. It has always been alligned or part of the Netherlands, even during the 80 years war. It would be strange seeing 'Roermond' be considered a part outside of the (now) Dutch borders.

Still, amazing maps, love them!!
 
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I think it will be great to have the borders of the Holy Roman Empire shown as an option on the political map, with a thicker border and a different color. It would really help to better understand which territories are part of the Holy Empire or not.
 
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And here we have the locations:

View attachment 1130589
We had a fun bug for some time - Antwerpen didn’t have any pixels connected to the sea, which we found because we couldn’t build any type of port building there. There’s a happy ending, as the bug has already been corrected, and Antwerpen can finally have a proper port!

Provinces:

View attachment 1130889
!
My inner perfectionism doesn't like Thionville being part of East Luxembourg province. Bitburg and Montmedy are not part of any Luxembourg province for example.
1715377533232.png
 
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In the German names there a some dots missing:

Location map:
Province map:
And for consistency's sake Coblenz should maybe be written Koblenz. As otherwise Köln should be Koellen in the timeframe of the game and Mönchengladbach should be Monichgladbach .
 
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