CK2: Dev Diary #117 - Historical Wonders

[scorch2]

Hmm I wonder if rebuilding the Colossus of Rhodes is an option.....Or you could restore the Parthenon in Athens if Hellenic.....The Pantheon in Rome too....

I can just imagine the things Holy Orders like the Templars & Hospitallars will build with all that wealth they get

 

[Olliganak]

Hmm I wonder if rebuilding the Colossus of Rhodes is an option...

Well you can build giant statues, so you could put one down in Rhodes and just call it the Colossus of Rhodes.

 

[SnakeInATopHat]

i like this alot

 

[Azsouth]

along w/ my other request for cities like Baghdad, Mecca, Constantinople, Jerusalem, Alexandria, ect...to get more great work slots, please consider adding The Colossus of Rhodes, The Sphinx in Egypt, Hanging Gardens of Babylon, Statue of Zeus in Greece, Temple of Artemis in Ephesus, Parthenon in Athens, Ishtar Gates of Babylon, Gobekli Tepe in Turkey, Newgrange in Ireland, Van Fortress near Tushpa Turkey, Persepholis Gate of Nations of Persepholis, Sanchi Stupa of India, Arc de Triomphe of Paris, Kom el Shoqafa of Egypt (catacombs), Oracle of Delphi in Delphi Greece, Mahabodhi Temple of Bihar India, Alhambra (fortress) of Grenada Spain, Mont-Saint-Michel off the coast of Normandy France, and the Great Mosque of Djenne in Mali

 

[Granty]

Converting a Great Work from one type to another was a stretch goal we had for this update that unfortunately did not make it in.

Is that something that you'll be looking to add in a later patch after the main update is released? Or has that particular stretch goal just been discarded altogether?

1. Only one Great Work per province will be supported. This is a hard coded limitation that is very difficult to change at this point.

Would it be possible to have one great work represent multiple wonders? For instance, a hybrid great work in Alexandria to represent both the lighthouse and the library?

 

[Granty]

along w/ my other request for cities like Baghdad, Mecca, Constantinople, Jerusalem, Alexandria, ect...to get more great work slots, please consider adding The Colossus of Rhodes, The Sphinx in Egypt, Hanging Gardens of Babylon, Statue of Zeus in Greece, Temple of Artemis in Ephesus, Parthenon in Athens, Ishtar Gates of Babylon, Gobekli Tepe in Turkey, Newgrange in Ireland, Van Fortress near Tushpa Turkey, Persepholis Gate of Nations of Persepholis, Sanchi Stupa of India, Arc de Triomphe of Paris, Kom el Shoqafa of Egypt (catacombs), Oracle of Delphi in Delphi Greece, Mahabodhi Temple of Bihar India, Alhambra (fortress) of Grenada Spain, Mont-Saint-Michel off the coast of Normandy France, and the Great Mosque of Djenne in Mali

They've already stated that the limit of one Great Work per province is hardcoded and very difficult to alter at this point, so suggesting that those provinces get more Great Work slots just won't really be possible.

Many of those wonders you suggest either aren't from the period of CK2, or else weren't known about at all. Gobekli Tepe and Van Fortress are many thousands of years old, and were only rediscovered in the late 19th/20th centuries. Likewise, Newgrange in Ireland was also ancient and basically unknown. These sites are of great archaeological importance, but their historical and cultural significance was pretty negligible. Comparing these things to, say, the Pyramids of Egypt, which dominate Giza, is a huge stretch. The Arc de Triomphe was also built in the 19th century, so there's absolutely no reason why it should feature at all.

As for many of the Hellenic wonders, like the Statue of Zeus, or the Temple of Artemis: by the time of CK2, these had long been destroyed. They weren't like the Colosseum or Pantheon of Rome, and there's no reason why a Christian or Muslim ruler would want to rebuild them, whereas wonders like the Pharos Lighthouse and Great Library of Alexandria might have a more universal appeal. I think it would certainly make sense to have the option of rebuilding them be available to Hellenic rulers, but they shouldn't be in the game right from the start.

Other wonders, like the Alhambra, were actually built during the time period of CK2. It was initially built as a small fortress in 889AD, before being heavily renovated and turned into a much larger fortress and palace complex during the 13th and 14th centuries. It might make sense to have its foundation be present for any start dates post 889AD, and to have its upgraded state be around for the very last start dates, but there's no reason why it should be around in any complete state before then. To be honest, even calling it the Alhambra would be a stretch, given that it was only given that name in the last stages of its (re)construction.

 

[MonzUn]

Is that something that you'll be looking to add in a later patch after the main update is released? Or has that particular stretch goal just been discarded altogether?


Would it be possible to have one great work represent multiple wonders? For instance, a hybrid great work in Alexandria to represent both the lighthouse and the library?

Great Work conversion is not 100% out of the picture but we can't promise anything either.

It is sort of possible... Since they will still behave like one, they will need to be constructed, upgraded, looted etc together, which may feel odd depending on what great Works you are dealing with.

 

[NaiveCarto]

What I see:
Petra!!

 

[pacja]

you said it's hard coded at the moment for one per province, not to sound like an a-hole, though I'm sure this will, but you guys are literally the developers, isn't it your job to figure this stuff out, in the effort to making this game as historically accurate as possible?

We're getting this feature for free, let's try to be grateful. If the devs give us an hand and we try to rip off their arm, next time we will get less, not more. I hope the feature will be well received and will persuade the budget guys to finance the development of an immersion pack with more wonders, related events/chains and unlocked slots in a few, selected locations.

 

[SigurdStormhand]

1. Only one Great Work per province will be supported. This is a hard coded limitation that is very difficult to change at this point.
2. I don't know, I'm not a content developer
3. I don't know where we settled on that actually... I know there was some discussion about it being a thing during our time period but that it was frowned upon by religious leaders. But again, I'm not a content developer so I'm not thy guy to ask I'm afraid.

I know you said only one wonder per province, and that makes sense, but this is causing an issue with a lot of cities that have multiple wonders. Consider:

Rome:
1. Flavian Amphitheatre - (commonly called the Colosseum)
2. Colossus of Nero - a giant statue of the Emperor of Nero that was ultimately installed outside the Amphitheatre - may not have survived Antiquity, although it is mentioned by Bede in a poem suggesting it was still standing in the 8th Century.
3. The Cathedral of John Lateran and the Lateran Palace - the Pope's Cathedral Seat as "Archbishop of Rome", entirely distinct from the Vatican. The Primary Papal seat from the time of Constantine to the 14th Century when the Papacy moved to Avignon.
4. The Pantheon - originally built/completed by Hadrian as a temple to the entire Roman Pantheon (hence the name) by the medieval period it had become a grand Chruch. It remains in good condition even today and includes the world's largest unsupported Concrete span (without rebar). The dome is a feat which we cannot replicate even today without modern reinforcement.
5. The Forum Roman - the original civic centre of Rome in the valley between the Seven Hills, whist much of it is ruined today it would have been more intact (albeit dilapidated) during the medieval period. Would have included the senate House with its bronze doors.

Constantinople:
1. Hagia Sophia - the largest and greatest Cathedral in the Christian world throughout the entire medieval period and the model for both Churches and Mosques in the East.
2. The Great Aqueduct - in use as least until the sack during the 4th Crusade, the Aqueduct was purpose-built for a large city (unlike the multiple Aqueducts that were gradually added in Rome).
3. The Great Palace - the Administrative and cultural heart of the Empire, included the famous "Purple Chamber", the room in which the children of a reigning Emperor were born. Also would have included the Imperial Administration, and the Imperial Senate and attached barracks for the Tagmata. Adjacent to both Hagia Sophia and the Hippodrome.
4. The Imperial University - The first Christian University, probably indirectly influenced modern Christian Universities via Muslim ones.

In the case of Rome a lot of the old institutions are worn down and either barely-functional or not functional at all but the Papal Palace, Papal Cathedral and Pantheon would all have been astounding sites throughout the medieval period. In Constantinople these buildings and institutions were really whole and functional until the lack in 1204.

I'm sure other could come up with similar lists for Alexandria, Cordoba or Baghdad - not to mention cities in India.

 

[Patriarch of Bub]

A few people pointed out that a wonder per county isn't good for some places, and rightly so.

Devs have said that it's been coded a certain way, thus it's not possible. Fair point.

How about leaving places like Rome without a wonder at start but at time of construction allowing a few choices to build including from a few historical ones?

That way you can decide to build a "great fortress" or build the "apostolic palace", or get the colosseum up and running.

 

[klopkr]

@MonzUn Are you guys adding in balance changes in this patch? Will we hear about it later?

I still have concerns about the imperial roman system, eldership, dual deaths, and all the extra provinces given to nomads.

 

[MonzUn]

@MonzUn Are you guys adding in balance changes in this patch? Will we hear about it later?

I still have concerns about the imperial roman system, eldership, dual deaths, and all the extra provinces given to nomads.

I don't think we have any balance changes (apart for those related to Great Works) planned for this update.
But I'm not sure as I'm relatively new to the team and therefore try to leave balance changes to the more experienced team members so that I don't accidentally upset the balance

 

[TheDarkMaster]

@MonzUn Are you guys adding in balance changes in this patch? Will we hear about it later?
I still have concerns about the imperial roman system, eldership, dual deaths, and all the extra provinces given to nomads.

I don't think we have any balance changes (apart for those related to Great Works) planned for this update.
But I'm not sure as I'm relatively new to the team and therefore try to leave balance changes to the more experienced team members so that I don't accidentally upset the balance

The only notable balance changes I could see happening in the near future relevant to wonders would be a systematic re-balancing of all the prestige and piety gains in the game. Possibly also a look over all the buildings to rebalance gold, prestige, and piety gains from those.

With great works being added, it will be very important to address the prestige and piety bloat the game has experienced over the years, as well as take a good look at all gold gains and the value of each investment relative to one another. Though I think that discussion would be best carried out elsewhere, rather than in a dev diary. I did start a thread about prestige and piety gains awhile back in suggestions if you want to take that up there.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/prestige-and-piety-rates.1154935/

 

[klopkr]

I don't think we have any balance changes (apart for those related to Great Works) planned for this update.
But I'm not sure as I'm relatively new to the team and therefore try to leave balance changes to the more experienced team members so that I don't accidentally upset the balance

Thank you for your answer.

I hope there'll be more focus on game balancing after the great works patch but i'm sure as long as you guys are working on the game it'll happen eventually.

 

[Griff Lancer]

Stonehenge on fire lol

 

[Fulmen]

The real historical wonder here is the fact that, with the exception of HoI4 until WtT, CK2 is the only PDX GSG in history to not have control-groups. That is, the ability to hotkey units to number keys.

Please fix ASAP.

 

[Serenity84]

Gah, enough with the anachronistic ancient wonders. The Lighthouse of Alexandria at least was still around in the middle ages, but badly damaged. A lot of other things people want to magically return are long destroyed. Or had simply fallen into disuse. A lot happens in a thousand years. There are plenty of genuine architectural feats that belong to the middle ages.

 

[Arko]

I can just imagine the things Holy Orders like the Templars & Hospitallars will build with all that wealth they get

Pyramids!

 

[Zalmoxis]

Gah, enough with the anachronistic ancient wonders. The Lighthouse of Alexandria at least was still around in the middle ages, but badly damaged. A lot of other things people want to magically return are long destroyed. Or had simply fallen into disuse. A lot happens in a thousand years. There are plenty of genuine architectural feats that belong to the middle ages.

Isn't the Parthenon still standing?